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Hull Design - Rear Quartering Wind

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Having built a solo hull that I'm generally quite pleased with, I'm planning to make another with some modifications. I want to build a solo decked canoe for rough open water (not white water). The only problem with the design of the hull that I'd like to modify is that it can be a handful in quartering rear winds; it doesn't like to turn downwind. It's fine on all other points and handles wind and chop well, but can be very difficult to turn downwind - it wants to ride side-on or turn upwind. It's 17' long, 30" at the gunnels and 27" at the waterline with good flare and fine ends. It has about 1.5" rocker front and rear, and a shallow vee hull. Whew.
My question is in planning changes to the hull: would adding more rocker make the ends more loose and easier to turn downwind, or does the tail need to be more "skegged", with less rocker? Is it more likely the long open hull catching the wind is the culprit and using decks will fix the issue?
I've played with weight shifts, moving packs fore and aft and this doesn't seem to have an impact. As a note, following wind seems to be the issue, not following seas.
My inclination is to add more rocker for and aft, especially as I want the decked boat for rougher water, and to add an integral skeg for long tracking.
Anyone with experience building/designing hulls for rough open water?
 
There are much better qualified designers here, than I !!!
I'm assuming we're talking a canoe ?

But to me the first thing that strikes me, is the length. 17' is long for a solo in rough, windy conditions. Width ? I'd at least 32" wide, and up to 34 " would seem reasonable.
More rocker would help also. Maybe double it.

I would caution modifying the forms you have, but advise a different plan all together.

What are your load requirements ? How deep is your current hull ?

Great question !
I'm anxious to see others respond !

Jim
 
Not qualified to answer directly, but my Swift Osprey which is excellent in many other areas, is the worse solo to paddle in rear quartering winds I have ever paddled. So maybe one help would be not to build anything designed like it?
Turtle
 
Ahhh, the dreaded stern hook! A very common problem on fast , longer solo hulls. A solo paddler often cannot exert enough leverage on a long, slender hull.
The fine line stems are an issue, much larger radius will help in the stern.
Also, more volume in the stern half of the hull will help. A fat stern stem helps too.
More rocker too, but that one is harder to determine because of variations in hull geometries.
You definitely want your stern to slip the waves, rather than lock into them. So more volume, more rocker, more radiused stem, and yes, less length.
Eventually, you'll need to compromise speed for safety, tracking for seaworthiness. Unfortunately, there is no universal hull, just as there is no such thing as a free lunch.
 
The answer seems to be a shorter boat. The wind is catching the expanse of hull. No amount of playing with rocker and stuff is going to fix that. This is the same kind of thing that happens with traditional designs like a prospector that have high ends. The deck may or may not help....install a spray skirt temporarily on yours to see if it helps with the wind.
Think about seat position too? Maybe a little further back would plant the stern better and give you more leverage? Again, easy enough to try by moving back a bit in a kneeling position. Just ideas.

Christy
 
If you are generally happy with the boat and it's performance, changing all the design parameters may very likely compromise the very things you do like about the hull.

I am not well versed in the actual design elements, so I am always cautious about making those sorts of changes. The one item mentioned that seems to resonate with me is that you need more leverage at the back, in those conditions. Perhaps something as simple as a rear skeg would give you enough additional control to get the boat to turn in rough seas. Unlike actual hull design changes to the future build, you can try this out pretty easily on the current boat to see if it helps at all.

Just a thought.

Brian
 
Excellent responses - thanks to all.
I'm definitely planning to reduce the length of the new hull; 17 is too long for wind waves that have a shorter frequency and I don't foresee tripping out of the new hull. I'm shooting for 15-16 with the new boat.
I love the idea of differential volume and radius for the stern vs the bow - I hadn't thought of that.
The hull will be lower profile with decks. My current hull is 18-14.5-18, and that should reduce to 15-14.5-14 or so.
I like the idea of the temporary test deck on my current hull too. I'll try that to see if my primary enemy is wind, or hull design. Good idea, thanks.
As far as loads, generally between 220 and 280.
Getting excited for the build - still in the planning stages. Now I have to get cracking on painting the house to build up free time with the better half.
 
It's interesting that in a small tandem paddled solo, one will never run into this problem, primarily because the seat is placed quite far from centre. My own experience has shown me that asymmetrical hulls with moderate to little rocker are the the worst for this condition. The stern usually has the least rocker, and it will dig in, acting as its own rudder. However, asymmetrical boats with generous rocker are less prone to this, as are symmetrical boats with generous rocker. So from my experience, loose stems allow one to correct easier. As well, more weight to the stern will help.
 
Distributing gear weight to the rear will help keep the wind from blowing the stern around but it also sinks the stern farther, which makes it harder for you to correct. I find it more effective to move the paddler weight to the rear (sliding seat) as it also gives more leverage. By adjusting weight distribution I've always been able to get my canoes be behave (mostly) neutral in the wind.

For a long time I thought less stern rocker would be the key to keep the stern from being pushed around uncontrollably but have been rethinking that lately. Like some of the other posters have said that sticky stern is hard for the center-seated paddler to correct. More rocker in the stern should make it easier for the wind to blow it off course but also easier for the paddler to correct. And if some of that off-axis push is also coming from the large waves then more rocker should be less affected.

I believe the shape of the bow can come into play as well in following waves. When a waves lifts the stern of your canoe the bow can get buried into the next wave forward. The water on the backside of the wave at the bow is slower than the water on the front side of the wave at the stern. If your bow sticks to that wave up front then the stern, which is being pushed faster than the bow, will want to come around.

The last solo I built is mostly symmetrical with quite a bit of rocker. I'm curious to see how it performs in that situation. I also moved the sliding seat farther to the rear. Quite often I'll find my seat pushed all the way back (and wanting more) but I've never found occasion to move it all the way forward.

I don't know how effective a skeg would be. Isn't that effectively what a differentially rockered canoe has already? I suppose there comes a point where the stern gets so sticky the wind can't budge it but by then I don't think you'll have much luck with your paddle either.

IMO the ultimate in wind control is a rudder.

I think the lower sheer of the decked design will have a pretty positive affect. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Alan
 
Yes Alan you are correct I think I meant moving the paddler back as opposed to more weight in the back. The unfortunate reality of many solo tripping canoes is that seating is fixed, or even with a slider, the range of movement is fairly limited. And if you are packing heavy, the area behind the rear seat is often pretty full. I guess that's why bigger is better!
 
I want to build a solo decked canoe for rough open water (not white water). The only problem with the design of the hull that I'd like to modify is that it can be a handful in quartering rear winds; it doesn't like to turn downwind. It's fine on all other points and handles wind and chop well, but can be very difficult to turn downwind - it wants to ride side-on or turn upwind. It's 17' long, 30" at the gunnels and 27" at the waterline with good flare and fine ends. It has about 1.5" rocker front and rear, and a shallow vee hull. Whew.
Anyone with experience building/designing hulls for rough open water?

IMO the ultimate in wind control is a rudder.
I think the lower sheer of the decked design will have a pretty positive affect. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

I would look at some of the existing decked canoes of similar length and dimensions; Sea Wind, Sea1, even the Poke/Phoenix Vagabond

http://www.krugercanoes.com/Products.html

http://www.clippercanoes.com/sea-1/

http://www.pokeboat.com/Vagabond.htm

Those decked canoe designs all have a very low stern stem. Same for the Mad River Monarch, Sawyer Loon and even the 1970’s Hyperform Optima and hardshell Klepper Kamerad. The stern stem on the Monarch is only 7 inches high, and the other designs are similar.

That low stern stem is so common on decked trippers that I have to suppose that is a purposeful design element, perhaps so that a rear or quartering wind has less exposed stern to catch.

And yeah, all of those designs, even the 70’s stuff, have a rudder.
 
Yes Alan you are correct I think I meant moving the paddler back as opposed to more weight in the back. The unfortunate reality of many solo tripping canoes is that seating is fixed, or even with a slider, the range of movement is fairly limited. And if you are packing heavy, the area behind the rear seat is often pretty full. I guess that's why bigger is better!

I wasn't trying to contradict anything you said; I agree with all of it. I see that your last sentence and my first sentence are related but that was just coincidence.

I think there's a small tandem used as a solo in my near future.

Alan
 
Thanks again to all.
In regards to the skeg, my thinking was of a retractable skeg, ala a sea kayak, to be used for stretches of sit and switch cruising. This relates to part of my concerns. Many years of physical employment, hobbies, and recreation have left me with wrists and hands that are liable to arthritis and tendonitis. Sit and switch paddling creates the least strain in a paddling stroke, with double blade paddling being the worst. Therefore, lol, a solo canoe that works with sit and switch but is nimble enough for rough water. Yeah ... sure.
I'm not a big fan of rudders in that they require constant pressure from the feet and thus lock the paddler into one seated position. This is what's limited me in my explorations in kayaks. My old knees and legs absolutely do not like to remain in the same position for more than a few minutes. A canoe, even a relatively narrow solo canoe, allows for many, many shifts in leg position. Adding a rudder seems to negate that benefit.
My guess is that I'll modify my solo hull design by making it shorter, with more rocker, asymmetrical with a more full tail, and low decks. Once I paddle and play with it, I'll revisit adding a retractable skeg or rudder.
Ideally I'd have the time to make multiple hulls in order to experiment but that's just not going to happen anytime soon.
 
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I have some moderately rockered in the stern canoes that are affected very quickly by any wind. The WildFire and the DragonFly will swop ends. Both have 2.5 inches stern and bow rocker.
Larger paddlers need to be further back.. In the DragonFly shoving the pack as far back helps.

The Nomad and Heron being less rocker in the stern are not so affected by wind. Nor the Peregrine which is almost as straight bottomed as a Wenonah..

With the rockered in the stern canoes it takes stern draws applied often to keep them straight. With the less rockered stern it requires a little more oomph but not as often.. I speak of stern draws.. NOT SWEEPS.

There is forward momentum in sweeps that keeps that pivot point forward. What works the best is to actually STOP, wait for the stern to ride over a wave ( as kayakers do) then do a strong stern draw.. That is a stroke directed perpendicular to the stern. This requires a lot of torso rotation. What you want is the pivot point to come back a little so that you can overcome the force of the wind with your stern spank.. ( thats what I call a stern draw). So paddling harder actually makes correction harder.. there is more leverage for the wind to grab the stern.

The Monarch has a great deal of rocker. I havent measured it but it seems a good three or more inches. This rocker starts a good three feet from the stem. And the shear ls lower of course ( deck) . If you notice racing canoes you will notice the shear in the stem is far less than the bow.

Rudder systems do not have to be fixed though they are annoying when they break and do need to be fixed. My Monarch has rudder paddles separate from foot braces. I have foot braces in my RapidFire that even with the high canoe seat ( it drops over the low kayak height seat) it is adjustable underway.
Harmony makes them.

Bow rocker and plumb lines will help avoid purling ( that annoying piercing of waves) as well as bow flare. All the above boats have a fair amount.
Try to do you correction spanks as the wave crest goes under your stern..

Old double blading trick. The hydrodynamics are the same..no matter canoe or kayak.

So for big water here as in Sebago Chesuncook or Moosehead or Lake Superior I would not take a highly rockered in the stern craft..
 
The technical answer to your question relates to the position of the center of lateral resistance (CLR) of the hull, the center of aerodynamic pressure (COP) of the hull+you, and the center of mass (COM) of the canoe and everything in it.

The CLR determines how water pressures will turn the hull -- bow left, bow right, or neither (neutral). Similarly, the COP determines how wind pressures will turn, or not turn, the hull. Sailors, for example, are very concerned about the COP of the sail. The COM relates to whether the bow or stern will have the greater inertial and frictional resistance to turning. If your COM (your gear load + body) is closer to the bow, your stern will "loosen", frictionally and inertially, and the boat will be easier to turn. If your COM is moved closer to the stern, the stern will stick or "skeg" down further into the water, which may make the canoe track better.

As a theoretical ideal to avoid any turning influence into the wind ("weather helm") or away from the wind ("lee helm") -- that is, in order to be water and wind pressure neutral -- the CLR, COP and COM should all be in the same geometrical place, right where you sit just behind the center of the boat. Actually, most paddlers (and sailors) would probably prefer just a slight bit of weather helm. You get weather helm when the COP is astern of the CLR. You get lee helm when the COP is forward of the CLR.

Now, of course, the next question is: Exactly what shape should my hull be so the CLR and COP will be in the same place, and so that place will be about where I sit with my COM?

Answer: I have no idea. And I doubt many canoe designers do either. Most work by trial and error, tinkering and experimenting. Maybe there are computer programs that can design these things; I'm not sure. I don't design or build boats. I just rely on paddling technique and load shifting to keep my canoes going straight. Or, on my outrigger canoe, my rudder.

To avoid extreme weather helm in a quartering stern wind, which is the problem you are describing, I suppose you could try tinkering with the COP by making the "sail area" of the canoe profile greater in the bow than the stern. That should help to create some lee helm -- that is, to increase the bow's tendency to blow downwind (by getting the COP forward of the CLR).

Again, the rudder is the simplest and most effective solution. A skeg might help a little initially with a quartering stern wind, but once you get blown off course, the skeg will resist your ability to get back on course. The rudder, in contrast, can be instantaneously, fluidly and continuously angled to produce proper amount of CLR shifting to always keep you on course -- and your hull's incomprehensible "sail area" be danged.

You argue that you don't want to keep your feet on the foot pedals for comfort reasons. Then don't. Retract the rudder unless and until you are in those uncontrollable wind or current situations that are flinging your canoe around. Surely that happens only a small minority of the time. The point is: You don't have to use the rudder if you don't want to, but it will be there as the best solution for wind problems when you need it.

Besides, if you are a sit & switch paddler, you should for efficiency always have your feet against a foot bar or foot pegs, regardless of whether you have a rudder or not. Of course, when you don't care about efficiency and just want to relax, you can take your feet off the foot bar or pegs and move your legs into a more comfortable position. Again, like a rudder, they are a tool -- available if and when you need them.
 
Think of it this way ...

Your boat has a centre of lateral resistance below the waterline; this is the point around which the hull would rotate when pushed from the side. In a perfectly symmetrical empty boat this would sit dead centre. This will move forward or aft as you move load forward or aft. This will also move forward or aft as you add skegs, or any other form of asymmetry.

Your boat also has a centre of lateral resistance above the waterline; let's call it the centre of effort. This is the point around which the hull above the water would rotate when pushed by a breeze. This will move forward or aft as you change fore/aft symmetry or move the paddler fore or aft.

If the centre of effort sits fore of the centre of lateral resistance the boat will have lee helm; it will want to turn downwind.
If the centre of efforts sits aft of the centre of lateral resistance the boat will have weather helm; it will want to turn into the wind.

A paddler can change this dynamic by moving his or her body aft (causing more weather helm), and by loading the boat to move the load forward (more weather helm).

A designer will aim for a neutral helm (or minor weather helm) as he/she wouldn't want to be guilty of designing a boat that only went upwind, or down!
 
To avoid extreme weather helm in a quartering stern wind, which is the problem you are describing, I suppose you could try tinkering with the COP by making the "sail area" of the canoe profile greater in the bow than the stern. That should help to create some lee helm -- that is, to increase the bow's tendency to blow downwind (by getting the COP forward of the CLR).

Glenn describes the low stern design effect far better than my equivocating “perhaps a purposeful design element”. That is a proven design solution common to most decked canoes.

I would look at some of the existing decked canoes of similar length and dimensions; Sea Wind, Sea1, even the Poke/Phoenix Vagabond


Those decked canoe designs all have a very low stern stem. Same for the Mad River Monarch, Sawyer Loon and even the 1970’s Hyperform Optima and hardshell Klepper Kamerad. The stern stem on the Monarch is only 7 inches high, and the other designs are similar.

That low stern stem is so common on decked trippers that I have to suppose that is a purposeful design element, perhaps so that a rear or quartering wind has less exposed stern to catch.

I have paddled all of the above mentioned hulls, and currently own 4 of those models among the family decked canoe fleet. The only decked canoe we have that does not incorporate a low stem is the 1971 Old Town Sockeye. Bow and stern are both 13 inches high (it is the Winnebago of gear haulers). In a quartering wind, even with an absurd amount of gear weight, it gets blown around far more than the low stern sheer models.

With the low stern sheer the rear deck, tapered up to a 12 to 13 inch deep center, is effective in keeping following waves out of the cockpit, and the more voluminous bow provides the buoyancy needed in oncoming waves.

You argue that you don't want to keep your feet on the foot pedals for comfort reasons. Then don't. Retract the rudder unless and until you are in those uncontrollable wind or current situations that are flinging your canoe around. Surely that happens only a small minority of the time. The point is: You don't have to use the rudder if you don't want to, but it will be there as the best solution for wind problems when you need it.

Besides, if you are a sit & switch paddler, you should for efficiency always have your feet against a foot bar or foot pegs, regardless of whether you have a rudder or not. Of course, when you don't care about efficiency and just want to relax, you can take your feet off the foot bar or pegs and move your legs into a more comfortable position. Again, like a rudder, they are a tool -- available if and when you need them.

The above mentioned OT Sockeye is pretty rudder dependant in quartering winds, likely because of the tall stern. The Sockeye (AKA the Sea Wimp) is the yellow and black one below (Optima, Sockeye, Vagabond, Monarch):

https://www.google.com/search?q=deck...mP4c6wJlobFnM:

As Glenn mentions, with the rudder up I still have my feet at least lightly on the rudder control pedals most of the time, in part for oppositional paddling force to keep me in place, and in part because that leg/knee bend position is most comfortable. The MRC Monarch incorporates a pedal design feature that some folks like (I’m one) and some not; There is a second set of adjustable foot pedals below the rudder pedals; positioned properly my heels are on the lower pedals and my toes on the rudder pedals.

If I really need pressure on a foot brace when the waves start kicking up the lower pedals take any strain off the rudder control cables and I can lock firmly in place with a 5-point stance, lower pedals (2), knee pads along the cockpit coming (2), back band (1).

BTW, all of those decked canoes have a raised, single bladable seat, retrofitted in the 70’s “European-style touring canoes” (nee kayaks). The seat in the Kamerad is a Wenonah slider, the same height used in the Prism.

If your desires are for a partially decked hull for use in rough open water I consider cutting down the stern sheer along the lines of all of the manufactured decked canoes designed for open water, and consider later adding a rudder if that seems advantageous for quartering wind control.

Apologies for the verbosity; I am (obviously) a huge fan of decked touring canoes for rough open water paddling.

EDIT: Some kayakers prefer a skeg. I am not a fan, in part for course correction reasons Glenn mentions above. Also because I do not like having a skeg box occluding gear storage, and do not like the potential of having pebbles or shells lodged in the skeg housing when beach launching.

YMMV, but I have never seen a decked touring canoe with a skeg.
 
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I'm not a big fan of rudders in that they require constant pressure from the feet and thus lock the paddler into one seated position. This is what's limited me in my explorations in kayaks. My old knees and legs absolutely do not like to remain in the same position for more than a few minutes. A canoe, even a relatively narrow solo canoe, allows for many, many shifts in leg position. Adding a rudder seems to negate that benefit.

(Apologies in advance, I am just smitten with decked canoes for open water travel)

All of our decked canoes have rudders, but they are not always deployed, and depending on the conditions and wind sometimes seldom deployed. The Captain says I am free to move about the cabin, same as I do in an open boat.

With the rudder lodged in a rudder rest on the rear deck the control pedals are as stiff as a foot brace; I am not exactly gentle in the amount of force used on the pedals, but I haven’t snapped a stainless control cable yet (knock wood).

I can and sometimes do take my feet fully off the control pedals even with the rudder deployed, especially when it is straight back along the keel line. Our sliding rudder pedals are all DIY “self-centering”, via a length of bungee stretched forward off the rudder pedal up to a pad eye or P-clip under the deck. Without any foot pressure the rudder self centers neutral, at least in moderate waters where I am likely to stretch my legs.

Using a rudder with a small sail is its own special joy (do not even get me started on that), but a rudder is equally advantageous when paddling into a quartering wind; just lock on an efficient wind ferry angle, lightly hold the rudder there and paddle on the downwind side, sans the need for any corrective strokes, moving along right smartly even into a headwind.

I not trying to talk you into a rudder, but with a custom build it might be worth incorporating the ability to later add a rudder. There are manufactured rudder mounts for every shape stem, so most of the design is using a stem or housing location low enough to get the rudder blade well into the water (and there are longer rudder blades as well). Beyond that it needs only the rudder & mount, a couple holes in the back deck for the rudder cable and tubing sheath to pass though and a set of foot pedal controls.

There are “How to install a rudder” videos galore on-line.TopKayaker has step-by-step photo essays that are well documented, using manufactured housings

http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/Articles/Instruction/RudderInstallation.html

Or even DIY’ing with gudgeons. Two of our boats have removable rudders, using gudgeon mounts and pins.

http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/Articles/Instruction/RudderInstallSitin.html
 
No technical language but practically, I just paddled a friends Colden Nomad today in a strong wind. I deliberately put it quartering to the wind from the rear. It was amazingly unaffected. I can't wait till mine is done early next month. It will be my big solo/lake canoe.
Turtle
 
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