Come to think of it, paddling the Malecite in a tailwind with significant waves and doing it with the boat facing both directions should be quite educational. Gonna have to wait though. I'm BWCA bound in a week.
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Happy Birthday, Gene Kelly (1912-1996)! 📽️⭐🕺🏻☔
Following wind, waves, and canoe design. Where to next?
- Thread starter Steve in Idaho
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My favorite way to travel downwind. And I was the stem paddler in one of the inboard canoes. After taking the photo I took a nice little nap as we blew down the lake for maybe half an hour.
(BWCA July 1999)
(BWCA July 1999)
Scroll down to figure 10.1.3, and view the animation. This is what I imagine I'm feeling.
10.1 Wave Basics – Introduction to Oceanography
<p><em>Introduction to Oceanography</em> is a textbook appropriate to an introductory-level university course in oceanography. The book covers the fundamental geological, chemical, physical and biological processes in the ocean, with an emphasis on the North Atlantic region.</p><p>Last update...rwu.pressbooks.pub
There is movement in both directions, plus up and down. Under six miles of fetch, it's an interesting ride.
That makes perfect sense. The water does move forward, albeit much slower than the actual speed of the wave, and likely your paddling rate too in most circumstances.
I think @chrisrezac's observation about boat length, relative to wave length, is critical. At least with respect to trailing waves that might be traveling faster than your paddling speed: If the boat is long and the wavelength is short, then the bow gets buried in the backside of the forward wave, while the stern is being pushed with more force by the trailing wave. So if you're not perfectly perpendicular to the waves, then the trailing wave pushes your stern sideways much more easily than it can push your whole canoe up the backside of the forward wave. That's why quartering waves can be a viable option in that scenario: because you're effectively shortening the length of your boat relative to the vector of the wave, which reduces the force differential along the length of your boat. That said, if the waves are really that tight, even if you're quartering, you're still probably going to need to pry to keep your stern planted at the moment of the trailing wave's engagement with your boat because it is still going to meet your stern before the bow.
With nice big rollers, like @lowangle al's example, the wavelength is much longer and so the force differential isn't quiet as stark, so there is less relative lateral push on the stern, and its easier to maintain your intended direction.
You all know far more than I do about the performance characteristics of hull shape within any given length, but earlier observations about a rockered hull being easier to navigate in waves makes sense to me. By comparison, a seakindly sailboat would have a lot of volume amidships, with high ends that would gently lift the ship up and over the seas, rather than digging in. Though, I suppose a sailboat's rudder and keel go a long way too...
Yeah, because the wind isn't always aligned with the waves, what I have been doing is quartering slightly toward my onside and paddling hard with a little sweep when needed. Like I mentioned already, it forces me into a sprint. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not always ideal - especially after a long day.
You just described the sailboat i finally sold last year. And come to think of it, it was always easy to sail DDW.
Now that I've spent a few days paddling a Prism in the wind (a story for another thread), I have a little more to go on. It was interesting to me that I had less trouble going downwind in the Prism than I do in the Solitude. The Prism is definitely more work going upwind. But here's a rub. I think the presence of wakeboats on my lake is complcating the issue. That may be why it was easier dealing with those long fetch following waves in the Prism - no motor boats. It could be that I'm spending a lot of time dealing with an impossible challenge - ie: tracking a zero rocker canoe through confused seas.
The quest for another boat seems reasonable.
The quest for another boat seems reasonable.
On that's note - @Canoe 1885 , what can you tell me about your Merlin II's handling in wind general with a tripping load?
I got to spend about an hour in a Redfeather Merlin III which I am told is essentially the same boat, but of course other than me it was empty. I was shocked to see it took far less effort for me to maintain 4mph than it does in either the Solitude or the Moccasin.
I got to spend about an hour in a Redfeather Merlin III which I am told is essentially the same boat, but of course other than me it was empty. I was shocked to see it took far less effort for me to maintain 4mph than it does in either the Solitude or the Moccasin.
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There are two things going on when you are paddling in the wind. There is the effect of the wind on the boat, and the tendency of the wind to push the unweighted end down wind. Since most of us trim a canoe stern heavy anyway, this is probably less of an issue with a tail wind. A lot of people have trouble with it in a head wind.
Then there is the tendency of the bow to submarine as is comes down the face of a wave broaching the boat in the trough. The waves need to be pretty big in order for this to be an issue, but a boat that is improperly trimmed will also be more likely to spin around and broach in the trough due to the wind even in smaller waves.
You are right that that there are different types of waves. Wind-blown waves are moving in the same direction as the wind, and tend to be short period. If the fetch is long enough, they can get pretty big. Boat wake can come from anywhere. It also tends to be short period, but after 4 or 5 waves come though it is usual gone. Tidal waves on the ocean tend to be longer period and can become huge swells. On the ocean, it is not unusual to have waves moving in 3 different directions.
Is there a boat design that manages all these conditions well? Yes – a sea kayak. The first time I ran down the face of a following wave in my sea kayak was pretty cool, but not something that I would want to do in my canoe. The sea kayak has a skeg or rudder for managing wind, and a deck and a skirt to keep from swamping. If you can roll it (I can’t), even better.
I don’t know if there is a canoe that manages both of these conditions well at the same time. A long boat with less sheer will be less impacted by the wind, but more likely to submarine in waves. A shorter boat with more sheer will handle waves better, but be more impacted by wind. I think you split the difference and hope for the best. End of the day, I think it is paddling (and knowing when to take a lay-over day) more than boat design that gets you through wind and waves.
Then there is the tendency of the bow to submarine as is comes down the face of a wave broaching the boat in the trough. The waves need to be pretty big in order for this to be an issue, but a boat that is improperly trimmed will also be more likely to spin around and broach in the trough due to the wind even in smaller waves.
You are right that that there are different types of waves. Wind-blown waves are moving in the same direction as the wind, and tend to be short period. If the fetch is long enough, they can get pretty big. Boat wake can come from anywhere. It also tends to be short period, but after 4 or 5 waves come though it is usual gone. Tidal waves on the ocean tend to be longer period and can become huge swells. On the ocean, it is not unusual to have waves moving in 3 different directions.
Is there a boat design that manages all these conditions well? Yes – a sea kayak. The first time I ran down the face of a following wave in my sea kayak was pretty cool, but not something that I would want to do in my canoe. The sea kayak has a skeg or rudder for managing wind, and a deck and a skirt to keep from swamping. If you can roll it (I can’t), even better.
I don’t know if there is a canoe that manages both of these conditions well at the same time. A long boat with less sheer will be less impacted by the wind, but more likely to submarine in waves. A shorter boat with more sheer will handle waves better, but be more impacted by wind. I think you split the difference and hope for the best. End of the day, I think it is paddling (and knowing when to take a lay-over day) more than boat design that gets you through wind and waves.
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I think this is the universal answer to all canoeing problems.
If you enjoyed paddling the Prism you might enjoy the Magic more. I paddled one for years and put tons of miles on it (river miles, small lake miles and big lake miles). Good speed but a little rocker to make a bit easier to handle.
I always thought it handled wind well and while it's not something I'd want to run rapids in I found it to be pretty easy to control on moving water. It would never be thought of as fun or lively on moving water but I always thought it was easy enough to get it to do what I told it to do.
I thought I'd have mine forever but finally sold it after I designed and built a canoe that I thought did the job of all-rounder even better.
I am a little biased towards the Magic as that's what I started my canoe paddling career with so we sort of "grew up together." No doubt there are other canoes that could fill the same role but for my style of paddling it would still be tops on my list if all my canoes burned up tomorrow and I had to replace them with commercial models.
Alan
@Alan Gage if I had more time in Ely, I could have paddled a Magic too. I wanted to, but the impending Independence Day celebration and crowds complicated things and I needed to get on the road. I have little doubt that I would like it more than the Prism, but I am reaching the conclusion that 15' is a more practical and useful length for me. I could be persuaded otherwise though if a Magic became available. 
This post from @Boatman53 is relevant to the circumstances we're discussing in this thread, though not specifically boat design:
Sea anchors and drogues
Trying to distract from the fires ravaging my favorite canoe country I was thinking about a couple of other posts dealing with weighted anchors and rudders, and got me thinking about sea anchors and drogues. Any boat going in the ocean should have them and I had a sea anchor on my 32’ boat. A...
www.canoetripping.net
Saw that. Maybe something to experiment with. The only time I've even been around something like that being used was when I saw a couple in a rubber raft fighting up-canyon wind on the Snake River. The put a bucket on a line and got more help from the current that way.
Chrisresac describes what is going on quite well. Trim is key. You absolutely need the upwind end of the boat lower in the water than the downwind end.
I've been out in my Wildfire with strong tailwinds and no waves. My stern was light and the boat hung up 45 degrees off the tailwind. I could neither turn straight downwind nor turn further into yge wind. All I could do was lean into a feathered high brace and hang on.
It's dangerous because a side or quartering wind can capsize you by itself, especially when strong and gusty.
40 pounds of rocks in my stern trimmed it down and made it easy to maintain a downwind course.
I now bring several water bladders that I can quickly fill and deploy as ballast.
It's the trim much more than the boat design. Sure, some designs behave better than others but 30 knots will overwhelm even the best boat if poorly trimmed.
I've been out in my Wildfire with strong tailwinds and no waves. My stern was light and the boat hung up 45 degrees off the tailwind. I could neither turn straight downwind nor turn further into yge wind. All I could do was lean into a feathered high brace and hang on.
It's dangerous because a side or quartering wind can capsize you by itself, especially when strong and gusty.
40 pounds of rocks in my stern trimmed it down and made it easy to maintain a downwind course.
I now bring several water bladders that I can quickly fill and deploy as ballast.
It's the trim much more than the boat design. Sure, some designs behave better than others but 30 knots will overwhelm even the best boat if poorly trimmed.
Something I read years ago, so long ago that the source has been forgotten but it's always made sense to me.
"In a river, the water moves and the waves are stationary. In a lake, the waves move and the water is stationary."
I think about waves on a lake as being like waving a blanket. Yes, there is some water movement as the waves pile up on the downwind side of the lake and some lowering of water level on the upwind side of the lake but not really significant (IMO) for this discussion. Sometimes you are going downhill, sometimes uphill. Downhill (surfing) is fast and then the canoe will seem to stall as you start to go uphill.
I've been out in some very big waves on some large lakes with both symmetrical and asymmetrical canoes. My experience is for that symmetrical canoes are much more predictable but, that's my experience.
"In a river, the water moves and the waves are stationary. In a lake, the waves move and the water is stationary."
I think about waves on a lake as being like waving a blanket. Yes, there is some water movement as the waves pile up on the downwind side of the lake and some lowering of water level on the upwind side of the lake but not really significant (IMO) for this discussion. Sometimes you are going downhill, sometimes uphill. Downhill (surfing) is fast and then the canoe will seem to stall as you start to go uphill.
I've been out in some very big waves on some large lakes with both symmetrical and asymmetrical canoes. My experience is for that symmetrical canoes are much more predictable but, that's my experience.
It occurs to me that I have never experienced a tailwind while loaded for a multi day trip. It's always been on day trips with not much more than myself in the canoe.
So I did a test with the Solitude the other day. I've never paddled it with more than a day tripping load before, and I thought I should try it before taking it to the Bowron. I paddled it upwind a couple of miles and back on a course I knew would produce some significant waves, empty first and then with a couple of large drybags full of water.
A couple of things stood out. 1) My average speed was essentially the same (within .1 mph) as was my top speed. I was slightly faster upwind when loaded and slightly faster downwind when empty. 2) With the added weight trimmed pretty even, the Solitude was slower to accelerate but much easier to handle in both directions than when empty.
I'm going to repeat that test tomorrow in the Moccasin if the weather cooperates.
So I did a test with the Solitude the other day. I've never paddled it with more than a day tripping load before, and I thought I should try it before taking it to the Bowron. I paddled it upwind a couple of miles and back on a course I knew would produce some significant waves, empty first and then with a couple of large drybags full of water.
A couple of things stood out. 1) My average speed was essentially the same (within .1 mph) as was my top speed. I was slightly faster upwind when loaded and slightly faster downwind when empty. 2) With the added weight trimmed pretty even, the Solitude was slower to accelerate but much easier to handle in both directions than when empty.
I'm going to repeat that test tomorrow in the Moccasin if the weather cooperates.
The way waves behave in lakes that we'd normally paddle is really complicated. Without deep water and many miles of fetch ocean waves cannot form.
The most common conditions in smaller lakes, even deep lakes with three miles of fetch, are smaller, slower waves that are close together. These waves cannot effectively be surfed. A sharp stern allows them to go by with less interaction with the canoe.
Shallow water guarantees the waves will be close together and slow, so again, a sharp stern isn't much of a problem.
On lakes with a few miles of fetch and deep water, it's possible to transition to larger waves that can be pseudo-surfed. In these conditions, the wave has more time to interact with the back of the canoe, and has more energy to push you around. You need your weight far back. Rocker makes the stern easier to fight. These conditions are a blast if you're out for a day paddle in warm water. But lousy if you've got a loaded boat and cold water.
I don't have a long solo canoe yet, but I think I'd want one with a little rocker, like the Merlin.
The most common conditions in smaller lakes, even deep lakes with three miles of fetch, are smaller, slower waves that are close together. These waves cannot effectively be surfed. A sharp stern allows them to go by with less interaction with the canoe.
Shallow water guarantees the waves will be close together and slow, so again, a sharp stern isn't much of a problem.
On lakes with a few miles of fetch and deep water, it's possible to transition to larger waves that can be pseudo-surfed. In these conditions, the wave has more time to interact with the back of the canoe, and has more energy to push you around. You need your weight far back. Rocker makes the stern easier to fight. These conditions are a blast if you're out for a day paddle in warm water. But lousy if you've got a loaded boat and cold water.
I don't have a long solo canoe yet, but I think I'd want one with a little rocker, like the Merlin.
Oh, good points! The waves I run from on the bigger lake are very different from what I was just on. Way more fetch. Way deeper water.
