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Oh, and Mike, I am DougD as he is me and we are all together, goo goo g'joob, more than you know, bwahahahahahah! [evil laugh]
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Happy May Ray Day! 🌞😎🌻🩳🇩
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Good question. I too have a hodgepodge of webbing of various weaves and thicknesses, both poly and nylon, and just pick out the better, thicker stuff. I have no idea what “specs” to look for if ordering webbing, but having an entire roll has been shop useful.
I order webbing from Rochford Supply, but usually when some webbing is on sale or clearance.
http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/Webbing/index.html
Like the aluminum brightener a 100 yard roll of webbing seems like a lifetime supply. The 1 ½” wide stuff is better for webbing seats, and seats use up a lot more webbing than gunwale or thwart loops. The 1” or even ¾” webbing makes better loops.
About making the 3/16” webbing holes using a hot 20 penny nail head; I have a scrap of 2x4 with + crosshairs sharpied on it and a ½” hole drilled in the middle of the crosshairs. The hole is so the hot nail head passes all the way through the webbing and the crosshairs help me center the webbing over the hole.
Are you the egg man or the walrus?
Okay, but for the reference of future readers, I can't imagine wiping Penetrol on and off adds more than a couple of ounces to a full hull. Probably about the same as wiping 303 on and off for UV protection or oiling gunwales. BTW, reviews on Home Depot say Penetrol also cleans up and brightens outdoor aluminum. I've never tried that, but it may be worth a shot on bare aluminum gunwales if cosmetics do become a factor.
Mr. O,
I have purchased both standard and heavyweight 1" nylon webbing from The Rainshed in WA state to make my own cam action tie down straps. Some of those straps are approaching 20 years of age... I also made up a bunch of polypropylene straps, they lasted for 10 years at best. Same place also had good prices for ANCRA cam action buckles...
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I am going with the plastic D rings for the air bag cage, but FWIW, the polyester webbing, sold by Strapworks, seems superior to their comparable nylon webbing, for most canoe applications including air bag cage loops.
From the Strapworks website, compare Strapworks colorfast 1" Nylon webbing ("Nylon") and 1" Polyester webbing ("Polyester"):
Flat Nylon Webbing 1 Inch, $0.45/foot, Product Code:FNW1
Flat Polyester Webbing 1 Inch, $0.59/foot Product Code: PEWSC1
Polyester is, what, a shade over 25% more in cost. Unless one is using a lot of webbing, the extra cost seems justified.
Polyester is a bit thinner, with nylon at a thickness of 0.070 to 0.075 of an inch, polyester at .06.
Polyester has more breaking strength (but see below on tear strength generically), with Nylon at a breaking strength of 3000 pounds, Polyester at 3800 pounds.
Polyester has 5x time the abrasion resistance to Nylon.
Polyester has a higher melting point, which might make poking red nails through it slightly more time consuming.
From other websites at the top of the google search:
Generically: polyester also resists UV much more effectively than nylon, both hold up equally well to mildew, nylon is exceptionally abrasion resistant, polyester just abrasion resistant, nylon absorbs water, and has more stretch than polyester, polyester has a relatively low tear strength compared to nylon.
Nylon probably has a nicer feel in the hand, if that matters in the application.
From the Strapworks website, compare Strapworks colorfast 1" Nylon webbing ("Nylon") and 1" Polyester webbing ("Polyester"):
Flat Nylon Webbing 1 Inch, $0.45/foot, Product Code:FNW1
Flat Polyester Webbing 1 Inch, $0.59/foot Product Code: PEWSC1
Polyester is, what, a shade over 25% more in cost. Unless one is using a lot of webbing, the extra cost seems justified.
Polyester is a bit thinner, with nylon at a thickness of 0.070 to 0.075 of an inch, polyester at .06.
Polyester has more breaking strength (but see below on tear strength generically), with Nylon at a breaking strength of 3000 pounds, Polyester at 3800 pounds.
Polyester has 5x time the abrasion resistance to Nylon.
Polyester has a higher melting point, which might make poking red nails through it slightly more time consuming.
From other websites at the top of the google search:
Generically: polyester also resists UV much more effectively than nylon, both hold up equally well to mildew, nylon is exceptionally abrasion resistant, polyester just abrasion resistant, nylon absorbs water, and has more stretch than polyester, polyester has a relatively low tear strength compared to nylon.
Nylon probably has a nicer feel in the hand, if that matters in the application.
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I decided to cut the walnut drops, recently obtained from from NorthStar Canoes, down to the dimensions of one of the drops on my Bell North Star tandem, which are 4.25" and 3" respectively. I want to get used to the Flashfire with a low seat before possibly raising it. My understanding is that the Flashfire excels at freestyle and kneeling technique. I might gravitate to that, but, for now, I am looking at it as a possible pseudo-pack canoe and all around fun daytripper, suitable for guest usage.
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On to the vexing port gunwale problem, described in one of my first posts. On the starboard side the inner lip of the outwale covers the inwale by about 1/8". On the port side, around the seat area, the outwale lip does not cover the inwale.
The suggestion to clamp it was a good one:
Although the clamping mitigated the gap of the outwale lip, it did nothing to mitigate the approximately 25 degree sland inward of the port drop:
The starboard drop has no inward slant. I fits perfectly vertical.
I have put some muscle into bending the outwale lip down with the vice grip wood sandwich as much as I dare, with no apparent change in the problematic inward angle.
The suggestion to clamp it was a good one:
Although the clamping mitigated the gap of the outwale lip, it did nothing to mitigate the approximately 25 degree sland inward of the port drop:
The starboard drop has no inward slant. I fits perfectly vertical.
I have put some muscle into bending the outwale lip down with the vice grip wood sandwich as much as I dare, with no apparent change in the problematic inward angle.
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My options for the port side seat hanger seem to be: 1) Keep putting muscle on the gunwale with the wood sandwich/vice grips until either the angle changes or I damage it; 2) Remove the gunwale, figure out exactly what the problem is, bend the gunwale back to spec, and reinstall; 3) Bend the hanger bolt to accommodate the inward slant of the hanger; 4) rout/drill the drop to mitigate the inward angle; or 5) Do nothing and install seat and live with with port side inward angle.
1) My strong sense is that brute force in this configuration will not work and will lead to metal fatigue or failure.
2) Even though I am planning to drill out the rivets to install d rings for the air bag cages, this sounds like an atom bomb to kill and ant. I have never taken off and reinstalled gunwales.
3) Best option? I have inadvertently done this before on Bell canoe wood gunwales. I never knew the extent of the bending until I went to install a new seat. Some bolt bending often seems necessary on some of the bolts at least, especially as the measurements for the holes on the seat are often somewhat imprecise. My hesitation here is the relatively large degree of bend that will be necessary, and how to measure how much to bend it in a vice. I doubt I can bend it enough just using brute force during the installation, as I did with the wood gunwales.
4) Hard to do without a drill press, long drill bit, etc. I have a round file and can do some filing, but, again, the degree of wood that needs to be taken out gives me pause. Maybe this and no. 3 combined.
5) If one side is vertical, and the other angles inward at 25 degrees, it seems that both sides will be constantly pulled on, the seat will sway inordinately, and metal fatigue is inevitable for the bolts. I would try this and see how much sway ensues, but I am not keen on ultimately ending up drilling multiple holes in the new seat.
1) My strong sense is that brute force in this configuration will not work and will lead to metal fatigue or failure.
2) Even though I am planning to drill out the rivets to install d rings for the air bag cages, this sounds like an atom bomb to kill and ant. I have never taken off and reinstalled gunwales.
3) Best option? I have inadvertently done this before on Bell canoe wood gunwales. I never knew the extent of the bending until I went to install a new seat. Some bolt bending often seems necessary on some of the bolts at least, especially as the measurements for the holes on the seat are often somewhat imprecise. My hesitation here is the relatively large degree of bend that will be necessary, and how to measure how much to bend it in a vice. I doubt I can bend it enough just using brute force during the installation, as I did with the wood gunwales.
4) Hard to do without a drill press, long drill bit, etc. I have a round file and can do some filing, but, again, the degree of wood that needs to be taken out gives me pause. Maybe this and no. 3 combined.
5) If one side is vertical, and the other angles inward at 25 degrees, it seems that both sides will be constantly pulled on, the seat will sway inordinately, and metal fatigue is inevitable for the bolts. I would try this and see how much sway ensues, but I am not keen on ultimately ending up drilling multiple holes in the new seat.
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Maybe you can contour the top of the seat drop to match the shape of the deformed gunwale. You could experiment with your original rotted drops. Or maybe you could just cut a relief area in the top/middle of the drop to avoid contact with the deformed area. Or you could try installing the drops upside down, even upside down they are still trusses and it would give your boat a unique look. 
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I hadn’t thought about clamping the wales in that direction. I had envisioned clamping the inwale and outwale together horizontally with a couple C-clamps, and then throwing a couple extra pop rivets through the wales to hold them back tightly together.
That may have zero practicality or effectiveness, I’m not even sure I understand the issue correctly. It is really difficult to envision a novel problem and ponder a possible solution from afar, even with photos and descriptions.
I have a couple boat working/outfitting friends I speak to once a week on the phone. A recording of our back and forth discussion of resolving some difficulty would be mind boggling.
Typical conversation:
“So clamp it together sideways”
“You mean up-and-down?”
“No, SIDEWAYS, horizontally”
“I can’t clamp it sideways”
“What? Clamped sideways dammit, with the clamps horizontal, holding the wales together”
“That would be with the clamps vertical”
“Do you know the freaking difference between “Horizontal” and “Vertical”?
“Yes you a$$hole, I have the canoe resting on its side, so that would be vertical!”
“Oh. Well never mind”.
It’s like the canoe tinkerer’s version of “Who’s on First”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZksQd2fC6Y
I find that polyester seat belt webbing is the best for all canoe straps. Seat belt webbing is a tighter weave and more comfortable than regular polyester. All polyesters are superior to nylon webbing for canoe purposes because nylon stretches when wet and is more subject to mildew and rot.
I'm not sure I understand the 25 degree "inward slant" of the port gunwale. Do you mean the seat drop, instead of being vertical, is pointed too much toward the side of the hull or too much toward the center of the hull?
In either event, I doubt you can straighten it out by torque forcing the gunwale, which will probably damage something. Bending the bolt could might work, assuming you can bend it to the right angle and then insert the bent bolt easily through the gunwale and seat drop holes. It's worth a shot if you have a few extra bolts to play with. Otherwise, I'd just install the seat with the port side cockeyed and see how it works out. (If the bend is toward the side of the hull, that might even reduce sway potential.)
I'm not sure I understand the 25 degree "inward slant" of the port gunwale. Do you mean the seat drop, instead of being vertical, is pointed too much toward the side of the hull or too much toward the center of the hull?
In either event, I doubt you can straighten it out by torque forcing the gunwale, which will probably damage something. Bending the bolt could might work, assuming you can bend it to the right angle and then insert the bent bolt easily through the gunwale and seat drop holes. It's worth a shot if you have a few extra bolts to play with. Otherwise, I'd just install the seat with the port side cockeyed and see how it works out. (If the bend is toward the side of the hull, that might even reduce sway potential.)
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Gumpus: I should have included contouring, or planning the top of the drop, in my list of options. However, my problem is not with 90 degree (roughly) right angle formed by the vertical part of the inwale (that is rivited), and the horizontal outwale top. If that angle was substantially less than 90 degrees, which thus forced the drop to tilt inward away from the hull, then planning the top of the drop to less than 90 degrees might pull the orientation of the drop back outward toward the hull.
I now think the problem is that the vertical part of the inwale (that is rivited) flares outward. The drop mates up against it and picks up that outward flare, directing the bottom of the drop inward. By clamping the inwale and outwale and torquing it a bit, I was trying to bring that flare back to more vertical, thus bringing the orientation of the bottom of the drops back more to vertical.
OEM walnut Bell drops are rounded at the top of the drop. I assume this was to give some latitude to facilitate the drop/bolt/seat installation at the factory. Years ago, I purchased some drops from Ed's or Essaex. They did not have the rounded top. The walnut drops I recently purchased from Northstar Canoes (run by Ted Bell I believe) are rounded. This makes me reluctant to plane the top. Plus, the bottoms of the drop may then need to be planed, not to mention the drop on the other side might need to be adjusted to keep the seat as horizontal as possible.
Thank you for the input. It made me think out the problem more thoroughly.
Mike: My understanding of the problem is evolving. It stands to reason my initial description may have been lacking. It is hard to put in words spacial conceptions, for me anyway.
It might be that extra rivets around C clamps would pull the inwale and outwale tighter together at the problem area, thus pulling the inwale under the outwale lip. It is a good idea. I may try that later, after I get going with the rivet gun. But, my clamping/torque method mitigated the gap, and so I am not as concerned about the gap now. The unintended consequences (and my possible incompetence) of extra rivets may not be worth the possible benefit.
I got a good laugh at your typical conversation! Yesterday, an old friend stopped by for a morning paddle. He knows the water, but not canoes, and especially not composite canoes. Our discussion went back and forth. He insisted that some catastrophic damage had occurred on the port side, like a pin against a piling in current. I tried to explain that there is no evidence of that, and at a minimum, there would be extensive spidercracking. This boat was hardly used. The damage very likely occurred in a shed somewhere. He persisted, probably because he could see he was getting under my skin. You know, as old friends can do to each other. A recording of our "conversation" would have been hilarious.
Irascible old coot, the Swede:
I now think the problem is that the vertical part of the inwale (that is rivited) flares outward. The drop mates up against it and picks up that outward flare, directing the bottom of the drop inward. By clamping the inwale and outwale and torquing it a bit, I was trying to bring that flare back to more vertical, thus bringing the orientation of the bottom of the drops back more to vertical.
OEM walnut Bell drops are rounded at the top of the drop. I assume this was to give some latitude to facilitate the drop/bolt/seat installation at the factory. Years ago, I purchased some drops from Ed's or Essaex. They did not have the rounded top. The walnut drops I recently purchased from Northstar Canoes (run by Ted Bell I believe) are rounded. This makes me reluctant to plane the top. Plus, the bottoms of the drop may then need to be planed, not to mention the drop on the other side might need to be adjusted to keep the seat as horizontal as possible.
Thank you for the input. It made me think out the problem more thoroughly.
Mike: My understanding of the problem is evolving. It stands to reason my initial description may have been lacking. It is hard to put in words spacial conceptions, for me anyway.
It might be that extra rivets around C clamps would pull the inwale and outwale tighter together at the problem area, thus pulling the inwale under the outwale lip. It is a good idea. I may try that later, after I get going with the rivet gun. But, my clamping/torque method mitigated the gap, and so I am not as concerned about the gap now. The unintended consequences (and my possible incompetence) of extra rivets may not be worth the possible benefit.
I got a good laugh at your typical conversation! Yesterday, an old friend stopped by for a morning paddle. He knows the water, but not canoes, and especially not composite canoes. Our discussion went back and forth. He insisted that some catastrophic damage had occurred on the port side, like a pin against a piling in current. I tried to explain that there is no evidence of that, and at a minimum, there would be extensive spidercracking. This boat was hardly used. The damage very likely occurred in a shed somewhere. He persisted, probably because he could see he was getting under my skin. You know, as old friends can do to each other. A recording of our "conversation" would have been hilarious.
Irascible old coot, the Swede:
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Glenn: I hope the post above clarifies the term I am using "inward slant."
After all my cogitation and mental gymnastics, I am inclined to agree with the totality of your last paragraph.
I might drill some test holes in some 1" x 2"s, to simulate various hole positions on the seat, and see how far I can spread the drops without undue twisting of the bolts or other bad consequences.
Oh, and I think I will try the Penetrol.
Thanks.
After all my cogitation and mental gymnastics, I am inclined to agree with the totality of your last paragraph.
I might drill some test holes in some 1" x 2"s, to simulate various hole positions on the seat, and see how far I can spread the drops without undue twisting of the bolts or other bad consequences.
Oh, and I think I will try the Penetrol.
Thanks.
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As a cautionary note the drops from Ed's also have a different hole spacing than Bell drops...like 1/8-1/4 inch more, just enough to make you scream.
If you don't like my idea to try your drops upside down then I may just take my bouncy unicorn and go home.
If you don't like my idea to try your drops upside down then I may just take my bouncy unicorn and go home.
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Seat Success:
The idea to use some 1" x 2"s as a test was smashing:
For one thing, it reminded me that one of the bolt holes exited biased to the stern, so the hole in the seat at that corner needed to be adjusted:
It allowed me to see how far I was willing to stress the structure to straighten up the port drops, and provided a handy guide for the actual drilling of the holes in the seat this morning as the heat bore down on me:
Happy to port:
Happy to starboard:
The seat is 6" of the bottom. We will see how that works, but first, foot braces. This should be fun.
Love the Japanese Saw:
The idea to use some 1" x 2"s as a test was smashing:
For one thing, it reminded me that one of the bolt holes exited biased to the stern, so the hole in the seat at that corner needed to be adjusted:
It allowed me to see how far I was willing to stress the structure to straighten up the port drops, and provided a handy guide for the actual drilling of the holes in the seat this morning as the heat bore down on me:
Happy to port:
Happy to starboard:
The seat is 6" of the bottom. We will see how that works, but first, foot braces. This should be fun.
Love the Japanese Saw:
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Dave, there is, to a boat tinkerer’s mind, nothing more satisfactory than realized success.
I expect you have already spent considerable time looking and relooking at that seat installation, and congratulating yourself on a well done feat of brilliance.
Nice.
I expect you have already spent considerable time looking and relooking at that seat installation, and congratulating yourself on a well done feat of brilliance.
Nice.
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Thanks, Mike. Perhaps more realized success upcoming?
Footbraces. I need them. They bedevil me. I installed a Wenonah footbrace last year using rotaloc studs, what McMaster Carr called adhesive mounted studs, what duckworks calls glue on studs. It does not look pretty. The wenonah footbrace slips. I have read that one needs to put in a rubber washer to help it hold. It is relatively heavy.
So, I am trying the Northstar footbrace. I consists of carbon fiber over foam mounting blocks, and two aluminum tubes that are expandable.
Northstar recommends 28" from the front of the seat to the footbar in the center position. This seems about right.
Northstar recommends 4" from the hull. This seems low in general, but not for the flashfire, as the seat is only 6" off the hull:
Northstar provides a two part epoxy:
Northstar says to use a spring clamp at the junction of the two aluminum footbars. Presumably, this puts enough pressure on. I am skeptical. Also, the working time for this epoxy is very short.
So, I build a contraption. I start with a poor man's drill press and a 1" spade bit:
Then, I build an "H" frame. The scrap wood piece closest to the camera is just a spacer from the thwart. Spring clamps hold the two vertical parts:
After all that, I am still not sure about this.
Footbraces. I need them. They bedevil me. I installed a Wenonah footbrace last year using rotaloc studs, what McMaster Carr called adhesive mounted studs, what duckworks calls glue on studs. It does not look pretty. The wenonah footbrace slips. I have read that one needs to put in a rubber washer to help it hold. It is relatively heavy.
So, I am trying the Northstar footbrace. I consists of carbon fiber over foam mounting blocks, and two aluminum tubes that are expandable.
Northstar recommends 28" from the front of the seat to the footbar in the center position. This seems about right.
Northstar recommends 4" from the hull. This seems low in general, but not for the flashfire, as the seat is only 6" off the hull:
Northstar provides a two part epoxy:
Northstar says to use a spring clamp at the junction of the two aluminum footbars. Presumably, this puts enough pressure on. I am skeptical. Also, the working time for this epoxy is very short.
So, I build a contraption. I start with a poor man's drill press and a 1" spade bit:
Then, I build an "H" frame. The scrap wood piece closest to the camera is just a spacer from the thwart. Spring clamps hold the two vertical parts:
After all that, I am still not sure about this.
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Northstar suggests as a general rule to locate the mounting blocks 8" down from the inwale. I quickly found that 6" was about right here for 4" from the hull. Equidistant from the bottom of the inwales on both sides looks right. Getting the leading edge of the mounting blocks equal to each other took a little bit of doing, again by reference to the bottom of the inwales and the nearby thwart.
I used a scratch awl to mark the approx 1/2" x 12" footprint of the mounting blocks.
The mounting blocks are cut on a bias where they attach to the hull. They do not match well to the curve of the hull. I am thinking of using kydex to get an accurate reproduction of the curve of the hull, tape sandpaper on the kydex, and sand the mounting blocks on it for a flush fit.
According to Northstar the "SuperBond" does not require extensive surface preparation. It seems a no brainer to actetone wash and sand the hull where the mounting blocks will attach. teh SuperBond has a working time of 4-6 minutes at 72 degrees!
I appreciate Northstar's efforts to make this simple and not intimidating, but I wonder if I might be better served by using gflex and even a strip of fiberglass?
(I finally washed the entire interior hull with acetone to get the water stains off. Tried to buy penetrol but home depot was out of it. I will be happier without looking at those stains.)
I used a scratch awl to mark the approx 1/2" x 12" footprint of the mounting blocks.
The mounting blocks are cut on a bias where they attach to the hull. They do not match well to the curve of the hull. I am thinking of using kydex to get an accurate reproduction of the curve of the hull, tape sandpaper on the kydex, and sand the mounting blocks on it for a flush fit.
According to Northstar the "SuperBond" does not require extensive surface preparation. It seems a no brainer to actetone wash and sand the hull where the mounting blocks will attach. teh SuperBond has a working time of 4-6 minutes at 72 degrees!
I appreciate Northstar's efforts to make this simple and not intimidating, but I wonder if I might be better served by using gflex and even a strip of fiberglass?
(I finally washed the entire interior hull with acetone to get the water stains off. Tried to buy penetrol but home depot was out of it. I will be happier without looking at those stains.)
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Well Dave it looks like quite a science project.
I'm going to do my first footbrace installation soon. I have one on order and overdue for delivery...I have to check on it tomorrow. Your project will make a nice reference for me. I also appreciate your tips for the bow repair on my Merlin II.
Cheers.
I'm going to do my first footbrace installation soon. I have one on order and overdue for delivery...I have to check on it tomorrow. Your project will make a nice reference for me. I also appreciate your tips for the bow repair on my Merlin II.
Cheers.
Not sure this is any help, Dave, but here's two different ways of installing a Wenonah expanding foot bar using glue for the metal slider rails.
In my SRT Dave Curtis epoxied the ends of two straight strips of ash to the hull and then screwed the slider rails to it. No need to bend the metal slider rails to the curve of the hull.
Secondly, years ago I picked this picture off the internet. The guy rubber cemented a thin strip of foam to the hull and then rubber cemented the metal slider rails to the foam, bending the rails as necessary to fit the curve of the hull. He said in his blog that it had held up for the two years since he installed it.
In my SRT Dave Curtis epoxied the ends of two straight strips of ash to the hull and then screwed the slider rails to it. No need to bend the metal slider rails to the curve of the hull.
Secondly, years ago I picked this picture off the internet. The guy rubber cemented a thin strip of foam to the hull and then rubber cemented the metal slider rails to the foam, bending the rails as necessary to fit the curve of the hull. He said in his blog that it had held up for the two years since he installed it.
