Composite Canoe Build

[Alan Gage]

This has been great to follow along with. The boat looks great out of the mold. Disappointing about the areas that bridged but, like you said, they can be fixed. And really you've got to expect something like that for the first build. The gunwales look like they came out great.

I'm curious to hear what the actual weight came in at. Did you weight the cloth and Soric before placement so you could calculate the cloth/resin ratio when done?

Do you think there's anything that can be done to make the peel ply and flow media release easier? Is it possible to remove it after only a partial cure?

I'll be interested to see what changes are made with the second boat and how they work out.

Alan

 

[Beast388]

Are you also adding bulkheads? Or some sort of sealed chambers?
Some thin bulkheads and decks would provide flotation and convenient steps for ingress/egress. If it were my boat, I would make them color matched to the outside and inside of the hull.

​Yes, I will be adding some sealed chambers at each end. I do plan to what I've seen typically done...which is to take some 1" foam and shape to fit and then cover with Kevlar & epoxy.

 

[Beast388]

How much time do you have into the build, not including the time to sand and buff out the mold?
.

​We started at 6:30am by spraying gelcoat, and it was infused by around 5pm. That included a lunch break and such. The lay up of the dry fiber did take longer than I initially expected. But, really...a Kevlar/glass hull with integral gunwales in a day isn't too bad. Of course, this doesn't include the 8 hour oven cure.

 

[Beast388]

OH, when you license this canoe, tell the Recorders office it is made of fiberglass, not wood, obviously !

Jim

Thanks!

 

[Beast388]

Disappointing about the areas that bridged but, like you said, they can be fixed. And really you've got to expect something like that for the first build. The gunwales look like they came out great.

Yea, that is the consolation. Expecting a perfect result on the first attempt isn't realistic...regardless of my wishes and desires.

I'm curious to hear what the actual weight came in at. Did you weight the cloth and Soric before placement so you could calculate the cloth/resin ratio when done?

​After cleaning up the rough edges, the hull weighs 69lbs. That, to me, is the most disappointing. It was a big clue when I used all of the 52.8lbs of epoxy/hardener. There was about 5lbs of material in the catch pot and probably another 3lbs in the tubing. I did not weigh the dry cloth before hand. I think I will on the second canoe.

Do you think there's anything that can be done to make the peel ply and flow media release easier? Is it possible to remove it after only a partial cure?

​We've talked about that. I think we'll plan to fire up the oven and heat until the epoxy is hard enough, remove the bag, greenflow & peelply, and then finish the oven cure.

I'll be interested to see what changes are made with the second boat and how they work out.

Alan

​The biggest reason for the bridging, is that there wasn't enough slack in the peelply. As everything was pulled against the mold when vacuum was applied, the peelply bridged across the ribs. So, we'll make sure that doesn't happen again. Also, I left all of the excess material when we wrapped the gunwale profile. I think we'll cut that so there is only1-2" of material under the profile....instead of 6" or more. The desire for extra stiffness and durability was at the expense of extra weight. I might switch to a lighter first layer of E-glass....one that will soak up less resin.

​Now....on to mold prep for canoe #2.

 

[Alan Gage]

Ouch. 69 pounds is a lot of weight with seats and thwarts still to go. 18'x36" is a lot of boat though.

How does the stiffness feel. Do you think you could get away with less cloth? Maybe a full foam bottom instead? What about going without the gel coat?

It's always so hard to find the compromise between strength and lightness. I think the ultralight layups for the big builders is, from outside in, two full layers of kevlar, foam bottom and ribs, and a kevlar partial covering the foam. I'd feel comfortable having kevlar on the outside if there was a gel coat. Without a gel coat I think I'd want some fiberglass, especially below the water line.

When infusing seats it seems the flow media is what creates most of the trouble when it comes to pulling the peel ply. Peel ply alone seems to release pretty well. What about burying the flow media in the laminate and leaving it there?

Despite the higher than intended weight that's a really great first effort. I loved watching it come together.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

OK, I know it's been brought up before, but how do you feel about eliminating those ribs ?

Jim

 

[Beast388]

OK, I know it's been brought up before, but how do you feel about eliminating those ribs ?

Jim

At this point in the game, it's not in the cards. I have a few ideas that will eliminate the problems in the ribs we had before. We'll see how it turns out.

 

[Beast388]

We infused canoe #2 today with great success. We modified some procedure and technique based on what was learned after canoe #1.

We emphasized working from the center keel out. Each layer that was applied was worked into position to eliminate any bridging. Adequate slack in the peelply was also incorporated.

I constructed foam inserts for the two outside keels that went in under the last layer of Kevlar. This helped eliminate bridging in this area. Under vacuum, the foam pushed down all of the layers below it to keep excess epoxy out of those keels.

We also used a lighter & thinner glass as the first layer.

All of this equaled 11lbs less epoxy used, which means 41lbs, went in. But, the amount in the catchpot has not yet been weighed.

Once the 8 hour cure is complete, I'll get a final weight.

We tested removing the peelply right after the epoxy was solid. It was not any easier than after cure. So, it was left until after curing when the oven is out of the way.

Hopefully I'll have a much lighter canoe on the second attempt.

 

[Sven]

Great improvement on the resin consumption!
Still excited to see the finished product.

 

[Jim Dodd]

The Old Second time Factor ! It's almost always better, the second time around !

Congratulations !
Keep learning !

Jim

 

[Beast388]

The second canoe weighs 54lbs, so a 15lb improvement. Now it's time for deck plates, seats, thwarts & yoke....

 

[Alan Gage]

Sweet! That's some real improvement. Are you stopping here or will you make some more? Are there more gains to be made?

Alan

 

[Beast388]

Are you stopping here or will you make some more? Are there more gains to be made?

Alan

​I am finished for the time being. The plan all along was to make two canoes. I am sure that subsequent builds could and would be better as the process and techniques were fine tuned. But, it has been a lot of work to get to this point and I am ready to finish these two and hit the water. I will be in the BWCA in less than two months, so testing on local waters will happen as soon as possible. Can't wait!

 

[Sven]

Nice work!
That's one heck of a diet you put #2 on!
Are you still planning on keeping the heavier one for yourself?

 

[Beast388]

Nice work!
That's one heck of a diet you put #2 on!
Are you still planning on keeping the heavier one for yourself?

​Thanks. Yes, I am keeping the heavier one for myself. Glad I have a 16 year old, 6'3" 200lb defensive lineman for a son to help me on those portages.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Nothing like a long portage to test the metal of a young lad !

Good for the both of you ! !

Jim

 

[charlie wilson]

Quite a lot of effort for just two canoes! Great infusion work, but consider release treated peel ply for next one, it's well worth the doubled price.

For perspective, Swift's 18.5'/222in/564cm Keewaydin, a sleeker hull, demolds at ~ 35 lbs in infused Kevlar, 32 in carbon. Rails are integral, carbon seats, carry thwarts, decks, grab handles etc add under seven lbs; finished K at 42lbs, C at 39. Nova Craft's Prospector 18 catalogues at 62lbs in BlueSteel, so #2 will be close to that, but #2 has integral rails. WeNoNah's Minn II can be had in a two blanket boat at 42 lbs with aluminum rails. Souris River's four layer Quetico 18.5 is 48-49 lbs in Carbon or Kevlar.

 

[Beast388]

My friend and I (and our boys) had the chance to take the canoes to test them out on a local lake. All in all, I am really pleased with the performance. The canoe tracked straight, but was easy to maneuver. Seat positions seam to be correct and comfortable. We are both quite happy with how they turned out.

IMG_2963 by bctc95, on Flickr

IMG_2968 by bctc95, on Flickr

IMG_2965 by bctc95, on Flickr

IMG_2972 by bctc95, on Flickr

​I still have a few odds and ends to do like paint the gunwales black and finish the body work on the hull. I was a great day to be in a canoe!

 

[Jim Dodd]

They look great on the water, as well as on top of the vans !
Now that you've had them on the water, What layup would you use on your next one ? Production ?

I see you were successful at the Court house ! Any trouble licensing ?

Did you make the deck caps ?

Jim