Composite Bloodvein build

[Jim Dodd]

I noticed the gloss with the Adtech on the GP build was amazing.I believe that was the Probuild.

So with the 820, how many coats did it take to fill the weave ? And did you wait between fill coats very long ?

The Composite looks great ! Are you itching to paddle it ? HA !

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

So with the 820, how many coats did it take to fill the weave ? And did you wait between fill coats very long ?

I only used the 820 for the initial coat to fill all the pinholes. I think it's probably too runny to use for fill coats. It would have to go on quite thin and runs might be tough to avoid. For fill coats I used the Probuild. One fill coat pretty much took care of the texture and then I gave it one more knowing I have some sanding ahead of me to level things out.

Initial coat of 820 resin was put down one evening and the next evening I did both coats of Probuild, about 3 1/2 hours apart. Each fill coat of Probuild took about 12 ounces.

Alan

 

[sailsman63]

Thanks for sharing the peel ply story. (Files away in brain for future use) Looking forward to seeing this one side-by-side with the strip build.

 

[memaquay]

Wow! That thing is deadly looking! Can't wait to see it on the water!

 

[Iskweo]

Yeah, spiffius maximus.

 

[Alan Gage]

Saturday morning I sanded the outside of the hull smooth. At some later point in the build it will get one last skim coat of epoxy.

Tonight I finally got back into the shop late in the evening to do some work with the canoe and got it flipped over. Once it was flipped I sanded the shaggy shear down flush with the wood mold.

20160117_001 by Alan, on Flickr

Bow:

20160117_004 by Alan, on Flickr

Stern:

20160117_003 by Alan, on Flickr

I was going to call that good for the night but I couldn't resist seeing if it would separate along the shear. Slipped a razor knife in there and easily peeled the composite hull away from the mold. Then I thought, well maybe I'll just try ripping out a few strips to see how that goes. That went well too and at that point it was kind of like picking a scab. I kept doing a little more and little more until it was all gone.

20160117_005 by Alan, on Flickr

Pulling the wood mold out went pretty well, took about 30 minutes. It all came out fine except for a few spots that will require a little more elbow grease and possibly some sandpaper. Unsure why they stuck in those spots.

20160117_006 by Alan, on Flickr

At this point the hull is extremely light and extremely floppy.

Alan

 

[memaquay]

That is very cool. What is your rough estimate on eight at this point?

 

[Jim Dodd]

I'm feeling better about using the window film now.

I would have enjoyed peeling the mold out.

I'm guessing things will stiffen up in time after you give the resin more cure time. With the slow cure rate and temps, has to be a factor.

Gunnels will take up a lot of if to.

What's the plan for the inside ? Just a few reinforcements ?

Looks Cool !

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

That is very cool. What is your rough estimate on eight at this point?

I'd guess right now it weighs about 15-18 pounds. The original stripper came in at 48.25. Originally I'd hoped to shave off 10 pounds but that might be a stretch.

What's the plan for the inside ? Just a few reinforcements ?

I've got the layup schedule written down at the shop but from memory I think it was going to be a Kevlar bottom, Kevlar center section, full kevlar blanket, and fiberglass bottom. I'll probably do everything but the final layer of fiberglass and after it's cured evaluate the stiffness so that if I need to add another layer the fiberglass won't get buried. There will be some other small reinforcements scattered around as well, at the stems for sure.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Those pieces of wood were stuck in there better than I thought! I figured a little work with a screwdriver and scraper and they'd pop right off. Some did but most were very persistent. So I spooled up my favorite canoe building tool with 40 grit sandpaper and chewed them off. Then switched to 80 grit and did the whole inside of the hull. I needed to rough it up anyway to be sure the additional layers would stick. Also a good way to remove an lingering wax or PVA contaminants. Now it's fuzzy.

20160119_001 by Alan, on Flickr

Weatherman is calling for a warm-up to near freezing temps by the weekend so it will be time to turn up the heat in the shop and add the inside layers.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

Do you think that the PVA was just thin in the areas that stuck, or do you think that moving the wetted cloth on the hull abraded the PVA enough to allow the epoxy to bond ?

I know you sprayed the PVA on.

With my test, I brushed on two heavy coats. I also tried to work the wetted cloth into the PVA, nothing stuck.

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

Do you think that the PVA was just thin in the areas that stuck, or do you think that moving the wetted cloth on the hull abraded the PVA enough to allow the epoxy to bond ?

I know you sprayed the PVA on.

With my test, I brushed on two heavy coats. I also tried to work the wetted cloth into the PVA, nothing stuck.

Jim

I'm not really sure what happened. I sprayed it thicker than I did on the GP hull because I only did one quick coating of wax. Sure thought I had good coverage. Maybe the PVA tore while wetting out and squeegeeing the cloth. I also thought perhaps the resin leaked through one of the unfilled cracks but that should have only stuck in a small area (the size of the crack) unless it somehow worked it's way under the PVA. Most of it seemed to stick at the turn of the bilge. Was there a reason or just coincidence? Such are the mysteries of life.

Give me another 5 or 6 years and I ought to have it figured out.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

It may have been the integrity of the mold itself. I noticed in your pics that most of the problems were in the bilge area, where generally the most stress is on the strips, a very slight gap may have opened.

Pin holes in the PVA, may also have been a cause.

In the "cheap" poor quality window film on my second Kevlar. I noticed 4 pin holes. You could visually see them through the Kevlar as the resin set.

They caused no trouble in removing the hull from the mold. And only left small spots that were easily removed from my mold( the finished stripper)

I know you well enough, that It won't take you 5 or 6 years !!! Thanks for sharing !!!

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

Today I added extra layers in the stems. Three layers of kevlar in the bow and stern. The final interior pieces that go in tomorrow will be easier since they won't have to reach all the way to the stems. I put peel ply over the seams to help smooth them out.

20160123_001 by Alan, on Flickr

Alan

 

[latremorej]

Yay! Progress. Don't worry Alan, in a few weeks it will be warm enough to get back to your normal pace! .... maybe, hopefully

Jason

 

[Alan Gage]

Time to finish up the inside. The final layers will be a kevlar bottom and kevlar center section under the seating area. The center section is two pieces that overlap in the middle for extra strength. I probably wouldn't have bothered doing the overlap but I'm using up scraps so that's how it worked out.

20160124_001 by Alan, on Flickr

The a full layer of kevlar over those:

20160124_003 by Alan, on Flickr

Using the drawings I marked the correct width in a few spots along the hull so I can make sure it's set correctly while the resin sets up:

20160124_004 by Alan, on Flickr

On the inside I prefer to do all the work with a squeegee.

20160124_006 by Alan, on Flickr

It gets the resin out of the pot right away to keep it from kicking so soon. This means I can mix more in each batch and have extra working time. I think it goes on faster too and no waste from the roller sucking it up. The squeegee can be a mess on the outside of the hull but it's great on the inside. Any resin that falls off the sides just plops back into the bottom of the canoe instead of on the shop floor (like when doing the outside).

Here's what it looks like now:

20160124_007 by Alan, on Flickr

20160124_008 by Alan, on Flickr

Tomorrow I'll add a layer of fiberglass on the bottom and that should do it!

Alan

 

[memaquay]

How easily did the resin penetrate those multiple layers of kevlar? What's the kevlar like to wet out compared to regular glass?

 

[Jim Dodd]

WOW ! Looks great ! Is that resin that much easier to work with than, I'll just say brand X ?

Was that all the resin you needed to wet out, in places three layers of Kevlar ?

That hull ought to be near Bomb Proof ! "The ATOMIC Bloodvein" !


Good move with the tape to hold the shape !

 

[Alan Gage]

What's the kevlar like to wet out compared to regular glass?

Not much different. Wets out a little harder. It's about 20% thicker than fiberglass. When it's wet out it does turn somewhat translucent so that helps. Makes it pretty easy to see if you've got a dry spot, air bubble, or not making good contact with the hull. Not as obvious as fiberglass though.

How easily did the resin penetrate those multiple layers of kevlar?

Penetrating isn't much of a problem but, like I've complained about before, it's getting the excess resin back out that's tough. The resin pools up under the cloth and doesn't want to come back out when there's more than one layer. So you have to move it all the way to the shear line where you catch some of it with the squeegee and the rest runs down the side of the hull. This resin (Adtech 820) is much thinner than what I was using before (Adtech Probuild) and is thinner than Raka as well. It wets out the cloth easier and is also a lot better when it comes to squeegeeing out the excess that's hidden under the cloth. Moves much easier.

I don't like wetting out more than two layers at once. Because of the way the center section overlapped I had a small area with 3 layers of cloth. It wet out fine but trapped a lot of resin. The full layer of kevlar was added after the other two were already wet out. I'm slowly learning. When I dumped the resin on the bottom of the hull to start wetting out the full layer I did it a little at a time and started spreading it immediately to keep it from soaking down through all the layers of cloth and getting trapped. Seemed to work well. I need to start limiting myself to two layers of cloth per session but I keep pushing it.

WOW ! Looks great ! Is that resin that much easier to work with than, I'll just say brand X ?

Being a little thinner makes it nicer for wetting out. The extended working time (60 minutes) is a Godsend! It seems that, invariably, it takes me nearly 4 hours for one of these laminating sessions on my composite hulls. That's from mixing up the first batch of resin to squeegeeing and placing the peel ply. At the end of those 4 hours the resin on the hull is just getting to the point where it's unworkable in a 72 degree shop. No way could I do that with the slow resin from Raka.

Was that all the resin you needed to wet out, in places three layers of Kevlar ?

No, that was just the first batch (24oz). I think I used 72 ounces (2 24oz. batches and 2 12oz. batches)

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Last night I put down the final layer, a 6 oz. fiberglass bottom. I had a little bit of S-glass left so I used that under the center, where I want the most strength (widest and flattest section) and used E-glass for the rest. Debated about whether or not to use peel ply and decided that I would to keep the seams nice (especially the top edges). After my last couple experiences I figured I could use the practice too.

So here it is with the peel ply over top:

20160125_001 by Alan, on Flickr

This time, after laying down the peel ply and pressing it into place with a squeegee, I mixed up another 10oz. of resin and poured it on the dry looking areas to get rid of all the bubbles under the cloth rather than just pushing really hard with the squeegee, like I did last time, and starving the cloth. As you can see it looks a lot better. This was last time:

20160103_002 (1) by Alan, on Flickr

And this is what it looked like after I pulled the peel ply off last time:

20160104_009 by Alan, on Flickr

And this is what it looked like tonight after I peeled it off the inside:

20160126_004 by Alan, on Flickr

Much better. Just a fine texture left from the weave of the peel ply. Not quite perfect though because there were a couple small areas with pinholes:

20160126_005 by Alan, on Flickr

dang! Really thought I had it this time. I can live with it though. I'll give them a light coat of epoxy next time I have some mixed up.

And since I'm sharing my mistakes here's another one that I figured out tonight:

20160126_003 by Alan, on Flickr

The edges of the peel ply rolls are frayed a little. Apparently there's enough surface area that, even though the cloth is treated to release, if you get all those little hairs embedded really nice and perfect in the epoxy there's enough hold that it ain't coming out. The rest of the cloth is no problem but those frayed edges locked in solid and the cloth tore before they came out. More sanding/scraping I guess.

But the good news the peel ply left really nice tapered seams (no rough edges) and now that the last of the fabric is down I can move onto gunwales.

20160126_001 by Alan, on Flickr

It's also a really good time for a weigh-in. Dropped it on the scale tonight and it was 30lbs. on the button. Hang on a second while I go back to the original Bloodvein V1.0 build thread and see what its weight was at this point..............

..................Ok, I'm back. The original was 36 pounds after fiberglassing the inside. So I've dropped 6 pounds so far and should have a much more durable boat. I don't think I can cut much more weight at this point. Planning to stick with the same carbon over cedar gunwales as well as the same seat setup and float tanks. So it should come in around 42 pounds. Didn't drop as much weight as I'd hoped but I can live with it.

Stiffness of the bottom feels really good and it should get stiffer yet over the next few days.

Alan