Building my first canoe

[Ben Mahaffey]

Long time reader, first time poster... i am looking to dive into building my first canoe. I have plans from bear mountain boat for the freedom 17. I have some woodworking experience and have build wood SUPs and surfboards so the techniques are not too foreign.
I have some questions and looking to all of you for some suggestions for the boat i am sure that there will be many more to come.
1. I would like to keep the weight down and was thinking about a 4oz with a 4oz football on the outside with 4oz on the inside of the boat...good idea? Too light?
2. For gunnels i am thinking about scuppered gunnels that are ash, i know its heavy so i am interested in other options, maybe a thin exterior gunnel to drop some weight?

The boat will be used for some bwca trips as well as paddling the back waters of the Mississippi River and other smaller rivers in the area.

I have a few projects ahead of the canoe so once those are off my plate the boat will start, pictures and updates to follow, of course.

Thanks for the the help

 

[Jim Dodd]

It's good to look before you leap !!!
All good questions, and you will find a lot of differing opinions ! It'll be up to you to sort them out, and build YOUR canoe !

I was about to say, OK on the 4oz plan. But you brought up the BWCA. and then I went right to how I build mine. 6oz instead of 4oz is my recommendation, especially for a tandem!

6oz. It's the same price as 4oz, from my supplier anyway.

I did a test last Winter with scraps. I took two layers of 6oz . I wet out a single layer, and then a double layer. I let them cure for a couple of weeks !(I actually forgot about them) The stiffness and durability difference sold me on a double layered bottom !

Maybe go 4oz Outside main layer, 6oz outside football, and 6oz inside. If you can find 4oz S-glass, in 60" width, I might try it in all three layers in 4 oz. Again this is just one opinion.

I like Ash for gunnels, and there are some ways to lighten your gunnels using Ash.
I just rebuilt gunnels on a solo, for a friend from Minnesota. I will take some pics tomorrow to show.

Now for a big time saver ! Build your Freedom "STEMLESS" ! Building with stems is Old School, and it's time the building community sees the light !
It's Not any stronger, and in my opinion not any better looking ! It is however a lot more difficult to build !!

More later ! But for now I want say Welcome to a Super site !

Jim

 

[stripperguy]

Hello Ben,
Somebody here built a Freedom 17...was it Wysedave?, IDK, I'm sure he'll chime in.
I would go with the one and a half layers of 4 oz in and out. If you find it's too squishy, you can always reinforce it on the inside. BTW, inside is where you put the higher strength materials, where the cloth is in tension (mostly). Outside of course contributes strength, but abrasion resistance is a main concern.
And add some Dynel to the stems for abrasion resistance, or resolve to always do a wet launch and landing. Oh, and extra resin on the inside will only make your hull heavier and more slippery, it won't make it noticeably stronger.

I'm with Jim on stemless building, it's the best way to a lightweight build. If you're looking to minimize weight, keep your bulkhead to a minimum, or leave the stems open. I usually do decks and bulkheads to cover my ugly stems, but pay the price when I'm carrying. As a side note, the decks make a convenient step when launching/landing/broaching beaver dams, etc.

Gunnels? I much prefer carbon fiber/glass over foam. Same for thwarts, but no need for glass. Hardwood looks great, but it will weigh more forever, and it does require periodic maintenance. (I tend to ignore my boats once they're finished)

Other than that, why aren't you building right now? What could be more important than building a strip canoe??

 

[Jim Dodd]

Other than that, why aren't you building right now? What could be more important than building a strip canoe??

​Absolutely !

 

[Ben Mahaffey]

Thanks for all the good info so far and that is a great question...I have been needing to replace my SUP for a few months and "need" to get that done first but maybe I will start to double dip into both projects .

As both of you have mentioned I am going to do stemless, just think that it is going to be lighter and just overall better.

Was thinking about doing 4oz S-cloth if I can find the width of else do a 6 oz and 4oz S cloth football with some dynel on the on stems.

Will continue to think about the gunnels, i like the look of wood but carbon fiber would be a fun experiment.

I want to do some accent strips closer to the gunnels (where i think there will be minimal curvature) my idea would be to have the accent strip not bead and coved and just glue to the cedar above and below. The cedar that touches the accent strips would not have any corresponding bead and cove strips... is this a good idea/bad idea or just a different idea.

Lastly, for now, what are people using for wood sources... I know this may be a super secret "if i tell you I will have to kill you" question but I will just toss it out there. I am thinking maybe menards for 18ft or 20 ft deck boards as I would like to have have to have joints in the strips if i can help it, just like the clean lines.


Thanks again for all the help

 

[Jim Dodd]

A good plan so far.
​ To me, Bead and Cove is a No Brainer !!! I can testify that it is the best thing you can do to help insure a Quality canoe. It will save more time building, than anything else you can do !
Bead and cove makes splicing a breeze, and accent strips can be simple and elegant if you so chose.

Right now, RUN to your nearest Menards, and start sorting their cedar !! I've purchased 90% of my cedar from Menards. It's easy to sort, (Restack the pile) !. Draw back is, 16' is the longest they carry. And the best boards seem always to be at the bottom !

You can find some good cedar at Home Depot, but I believe 12' is the longest they carry.

HOW to SORT cedar is you next quest, or should be. Look for flat sawn grain, and as few knots as possible. When you look at the end grain on a plank laying flat, you want the grain to run left to right, not up and down.
Here's a pic.

I look at Menards #3 and better, sanded on three sides, one flat side is rough. I'd start looking at 1x12s, all the way down to 1x6s.
I love sorting lumber! It also gives my Wife time shop, without my interference ! A Real plus according to her !

The good thing about building a stripper, is you can buy a little at a time. A plank here and there, glue, paint brushes, a skilsaw.

OH I just picked up a used Dewalt 15amp skilsaw, at an auction, that I used to cut Ash gunnels from a plank . It cut that Ash like it was butter! WOW was I impressed ! Can't wait to cut strips with it !

Have fun Building ! I just reread your original post, and see you have built some SUPs. Maybe I'm giving you too much "Beginner" information ?

Good Luck !

Jim

 

[stripperguy]

Ben,
Any of my recommendations of where to buy western red cedar would be worthless to you...I'm in upstate NY, best place for me is Curtis Lumber in Malta, NY.

Beyond that, splicing shorter strips is no big deal. If you have similar color and grain, the splices could be invisible. A simple butt splice is more than adequate.

 

[Ben Mahaffey]

Jim- not to worry have have done some SUPs and surfboards out of wood and use bead and cove for that, i am already sold.
As for cutting strips i am planning on using the table saw, i will have enough room when i open the back door and garage door for infeed and out feed.

I was looking at menards and they have rough cut 2x4 cedar boards that go up to either 18 or 20 ft. Wondering if q8 ft would be long enough for a 17 ft boat when you factor in the shape of the hull.

Will take the 2x4 and resaw to 1x4 then strip to 1/4 in for strips. A bit more work but i get the long length that i want (right now, i will eventually just come to my senses and just get 1x and scarf joint them.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've scrounged around for clear/mostly clear boards at home improvement stores and have given up. I know Jim finds them but I never seem to. Sometimes I get A grade clear from our local lumber yard (they order it in) or from a lumber wholesaler I have an account with. These will come finished on 4 sides at 11/16" thick. Most of the boards will be flat or rift sawn but some will be quarter. I use the quarter sawn for other projects. Really nice wood and usually some very dark boards mixed in.

I've also bought D grade lumber from my wholesaler and prefer this because it's cheaper and, being a lower grade of board, nearly all of them are flat sawn. D grade means one or two small pin knots are allowed in each board so you don't loose much. They come with one side rough and are about 7/8" thick. Never seen much color variation, pretty plain looking boards. They seem to be mostly from young and fast growing trees so wide growth rings. Not as pleasant to work with as A grade but they get the job done.

Full length boards are nice to use but I usually use shorter boards because they're easier to source as well as handle in the shop. Butt joints don't bother me.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I want to do some accent strips closer to the gunnels (where i think there will be minimal curvature) my idea would be to have the accent strip not bead and coved and just glue to the cedar above and below. The cedar that touches the accent strips would not have any corresponding bead and cove strips... is this a good idea/bad idea or just a different idea.

That should work fine. I did similar on the last boat I stripped. The knuckled tumblehome is flat so the bead and cove doesn't have a whole lot of benefit. I used square edge strips on that section and it worked fine.

Alan

 

[Jim Dodd]

I've never cut 2x4s, which are actually 1 5/8"x3 5/8". Buy the time you factor in saw kerf, I'm thinking you will end up throwing a lot of wood away. Not to mention the extra work.
If you want some accent strips, use some Aspen. I really like how it holds it's color !
My Nokomis is 16'4", built with 16' strips. Splicing was really not a problem !

18' strips are plenty long for a 17' canoe .

Jim

 

[Ben Mahaffey]

Jim now that you mention that I think you're right, the juice may not be worth the squeeze working with rough 2x4s. Originally I was thinking about getting d select 1x4s from brunsell lumber in Madison as they have up to 16' lengths. Looks like sometimes the first plan is the best. I do love the look of aspen, i have used it in my last two surfboards one is cedar and aspen and the other mahogany and aspen. I am thinking about two aspen strips maybe 3/4 of an in and a thin 1/4 in stripe of mahogany inbetween. I tried to get a pic of the last two boards but it says that the file size is too big...will have to work on that a bit later

Ben

 

[sailsman63]

Buy the time you factor in saw kerf, I'm thinking you will end up throwing a lot of wood away. Not to mention the extra work.

Perhaps, but if he has a bandsaw it would be pretty easy.

Not a lot to add, though if you do use sub-hull length strips, don't scarf them. They end up looking weird when you fair the hull. Been there, done that.

Depending on what your accent looks like, bead and cove for the accent may not be that hard. Mine have a border strip on both edges, but I did successfully run cove right down the pieced edge.

Accent woods, you have quite a set of options. Aspen, perhaps basswood for light color. Some have used Alder, but that is not a common wood near me, so I can't recommend/review. I've even wondered about some nice, clear white pine. (Grain is stronger and more visible than the hardwoods) Dark colors: Redwood if available in your area, or Walnut. Make sure to stay away from the really hard stuff, like Maple. You'll spend a disproportionate amount of time fairing it.

EDIT: oh, wait, you're near me.

Gunwale: Before you decide on this, let me ask: is the gunwale going to be used to take a load, either to secure gear, or to hang seats?

 

[Mihun09]

Scarfed strips don't always look weird. We do it all the time and prefer it over butted ends, but then we don't generally use staples either which are pretty much necessary when doing butt ends. All the staple marks in my last build are the ugly parts of the boat to me. I did use Aspen for an accent strip and won't ever again considering it was so dry it did not sand at all, like trying to fair in concrete adjacent to cedar. If you do use Aspen, check the moisture level.

Karin

 

[Ben Mahaffey]

You guys are great, all of this info is getting my brain clicking as to what and how I want to do things.
Sailsman- I am going to hang the seats from the gunnels so that may matter as to how they are installed/designed and I do have a bandsaw but find that I get a lot of drift in the blade when re-sawing stock as it is not the highest quality machine that I have.

 

[sailsman63]

@Ben Mahaffey: my primary thought about the gunwales is that, with a load hung from them, you cannot skimp to much on the width of the inwale. You need space for the hanging mechanism. I've got 7/8" total width, which is enough to set brass threaded inserts for 1/4" machine thread with some bulk to spare.

When trying to save weight, and looking at scuppers, you want to make sure that the hardware end up between the scuppers... otherwise you have to overbuild gunwale.

 

[Mihun09]

I clamped the inners in and then laid out where the seat, thwart, decks and yoke would go, then I marked for scuppers. Left me plenty of space hardware for the seats et al and made sure I stopped short of the extra long decks. Then just pulled the rails out, machined the scuppers, and soaked them for permanent install.