Bell Wilfire gunwale restore project

[cflcanoe]

Maybe I was lucky May be not. Was able to obtain a white gold Bell Wildfire in need of work today at a good for me price. Hull shows low use on the outside. looking good so far on the inside. The canoe was stored outside for t.he last little bit and has never had the gunwales oiled since the factory. They are salvageable with a little sanding. Rescued this canoe just in time. Tried out a small spot in the worst area today. Would like to be able to remove the gunwales from the canoe to do this and be able to oil the side of the wood that is next to the gel coat and other wise unreachable. The issue with removing the gunwales is the epoxy at the underside ends of the gunwales on the bow and stern that basically glues the gunwales to each other and to the canoe at this point. Anyone ever had luck removing and not damaging Bell wood gunwales?

The approach that has worked in the past for me in restoring other wood work has been to use high end masking tape (Frogtape) and very thin sheet of metal from the hobby shop. First protect the adjacent area with the masking tape so the metal will not scratch it. Slip the metal between the two pieces then you have a sanding guard to protect the surface that should not be touched by sandpaper. The issue with this method is it will not allow oil to be applied to the hidden part of the gunwale.

 

[yellowcanoe]

You can take em off. CEW knows how as he put em there. May not be epoxy. Pblanc also might have hints. Oil doesn't last long.. are you going to remove the gunwales frequently? I like the look of oil but the six times a year app is sometimes not practical.

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1662319

 

[Guest]

The issue with removing the gunwales is the epoxy at the underside ends of the gunwales on the bow and stern that basically glues the gunwales to each other and to the canoe at this point. Anyone ever had luck removing and not damaging Bell wood gunwales?

I have had success is similar situations using a hacksaw blade or coping saw blade with duct tape wrapped around the ends as a handle.

 

[cflcanoe]

Wish the trick of the coping saw blade worked. There is wood on top. Glue/wood dust fill on the underside of the Bell composite canoe gunwales at the ends were they pass over the composite hull . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg3P8mSE3XE Hopefully you will be able to cut and paste this video link. After about the 8 minute mark he shows doing the gunwale cross over like Bell did. Lot of cutting and fine tuning by sanding.

Have three Bells now and a Mad River with Wood rails. Oil is no problem for me to put on regularly. My canoes get oiled at least once every three months on the available wood surfaces. Over kill I know. Just enjoy doing it some times. Before installing new gunwales on a canoe at least six different coats of oil over two weeks are used on the side that will not be available for reoiling. When I bought the black gold Wildfire its gunwales were too far gone to be saved. Made new ones and copied the Colden Wildfires design for the gunwales for easy access. Trying to save the gunwales on a White Gold layup Wildfire now. Picking up wood gunwale canoes with with rot seems to be a way of life with me.

OK CEW how do you do it? Wat was used as the fill in the cross over ends of the Bell Composite canoes with wood gunwales?

 

[pblanc]

I managed to get the gunwales off of a Bell White Gold Flashfire a few years back. I do recall writing to Charlie Wilson for tips on how to accomplish this. I do not recall that he had any advice on how to break the resin bond, however. \

The gunwales on the boat in question were in good shape but the hull had been crushed by a forklift and needed to be patched on both sides. Some of the patches had to extend right up to the gunwale line so the gunwales had to come off. If I recall correctly, Charlie told me that the gap between the undersides of the inwales and the hull was filled in with resin with wood dust (saw dust) mixed in. From the appearance of my boat, that seemed to be correct.

Charlie told me he did not like that arrangement for the gunwales but Ted Bell liked the appearance. I sort of like the appearance as well but unfortunately and contrary to the youtube video, that arrangement is not very strong. The overhanging inwales and outwales are really unsupported and it is pretty common to see Bell canoes where the ends of the inwales and outwales have been broken off. Unfortunately, when this happens, the break usually doesn't occur flush with the hull, but further inboard at one of the screw holes which eliminates the option of simply shortening the rails.

As for how I broke the resin bond to the boat, if I am remembering correctly I used a heat gun to warm up the resin and the hull and worked a scalpel blade between the fill and the hull. As I recall, I broke a fair number of blades doing so but finally got it loose. The inwale ends remained bonded to each other, but for my purposes that was OK. It would probably be OK for your purposes as well.

Another issue that you might encounter is getting the long screws that go in from the outwale side and penetrate the inset deck plate out. These are the central two of the four end screws on each side. These are 2" long IIRC and penetrate an inch into the deck plate. Mine were very tight and I was afraid I would twist off the screw heads or hopelessly strip the ends. I finally got them out by heating the screw heads with a soldering iron tip, backing them out a bit, and repeating multiple times.

If you simply can't get the inwales loose from the hull and feel you still need to remove them I would consider just shortening the inwales and the outwales. You will want to cut the outwales off at a bevel about 3/4" shy of the stem. Mark the inwales carefully and cut them off right where they pass over the hull at the stem. You can them trim the ends of the inwales so they have a lip that just covers the hull. This is really a much more practical arrangement and is what I did when I later rerailed a Black Gold Bell Wildfire. If you do this you will still probably have a mass of resin/wood dust stuck onto the end of the hull. You could then try the coping saw blade method, or just saw off the majority and carefully grind away the rest with a Dremel fitted with a sanding drum, or suchlike.

 

[bateaurouge]

I bought my first canoe (also a Bell Wildfire) here in Germany last autumn. I'm also planning on doing some work on it during winter. On my canoe the gunwales are still in very good condition, but the epoxy-wood-mixture at the ends seem to come loose (the parts of the inner gunwales which overlap the hull have come unstuck and at the stern the whole epoxy "block" seem to have come loose). I'm thinking of unscrewing the gunwales at the ends (I already checked, the screws turn quite easily on my canoe), removing the old epoxy and replacing it with new epoxy. I'm therefore curious as to how things go for you. Some pictures would be very nice if possible.
If I can be of any help, then let my know. But I'll probably only get to the repair during winter - I don't want to change the running system while the weather is still nice for paddling.

 

[cflcanoe]

Wish I had a way of posting pictures. Got to figure that out.

The system of tape to protect the hull from a thin sheet of brass that in turn protected the hull from my vigorous sanding worked out great. The sheet was cut to 12 inches by 4 inches. This allowed me to move a little quicker and be less careful over most of the length of the gunwale. Extra care was taken were just tape protected the hull.

Removed thwarts, seat, end plates, then the screws from about one half the length of one side the gunwales at a time and was thus able to get Watco Teak oil on the back side of most of the gunwales. Used small wedges of thin wood to keep the gunwales off the hull so the oil on the wood that would be next to the hull could dry. Once dry taped off the hull were the metal would touch. Moved the metal along the hull as sanding progressed. Only sand the wood on the sides with the gunwales unscrewed or off. Sanding the top were the wood joins the two sides of the gunwale will result in uneven gunwales when screwed back on the hull. Less area sanded while the gunwales are unscrewed the better. Be careful of sanding too much of the top of the gunwales as the lip that covers the edge of hull is thin. http://www.edscanoe.com/ashguspre.html should show you the profile of the Bell gunwales at eds canoe.

Picture hanging wire through bolt holes on the removed wooden pieces allows them to be hung after oiling.


Used Dark Walnut Watco on the rest of the gunwales and other visible wood. The dark walnut hides a lot of water stain but not all. Was thinking of using wood bleach but decide against doing as this will be my beater/work solo. All go no show. Wood bleach will also raise the grain.

From what I saw when I took off the very rotten gunwales of my first Wildfire (notice a trend here with me? Rotten wood makes a good buy). Is that even if the gunwales are lose from the epoxy-wood-mixture you may still have a problem. The hull may very well still be attached to the remains of the epoxy-wood-mixture and removing it may cause some damage. Also were inner gunwales cross over the hull the gunwales are VERY thin and easy to break. You might wish to study the Colden Wildfire gunwales and end cap set up in case yours breaks during removal.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I have a Colden WildFire. What sort of pictures do you need. The rosewood cap is decorative.