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Thoughts on double bladed paddles from a somewhat experienced double blader.

yknpdlr said:
A great example of the point being completly missed.

When I want to make time over open water, I apply power strokes, staying on one side or the other while paddling in a straight line, bow never wavering by more than a couple of degrees from my destination. I do not waddle like a duck with bow swinging pointing left and right away from the destination with every stroke..
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I don't think I missed the point, I think my words didn't maybe convey what I was trying to say, as well as I would like. "Dancing around a dock" ... the intent was to say, when I need finesse and close quarter control, I reach for the single blade ... realize now that it could be construed as negative and that was not the intent.

As far as "waddling like a duck" and the bow going to and fro .... the DB is just another tool in the box IMO, if the hammer keeps hitting your thumb, maybe it isn't the tool for you. I personally don't waddle and haven't observed anyone with that issue in our group, we have a trip planned soon, I will try and remember to do a poll with them, see if anyone has that, as an issue.

Lots of folks use the DB, lots of folks don't use the DB ... I have a good selection/types of straight blades and bent shafts ... can't say I am totally proficient with any of them, I know enough to pick what is likely needed on any given trip and make them do what I need. The key for me, is to try the paddle type ... learn what it offers and if I can make use of it, in my tripping. Some times I like it, some times I want to change it a bit and some times I just don't like it. The nice thing about this approach is that I am always looking at new stuff and always adding to that toolbox.

Something to keep in mind, is that we don't all travel the same waters/terrain, use the same equipment, have the same trip frequency and aren't all the same age. What you pick to trip with will be impacted by all of the above, as much as we would like a "universal" paddle or the "ultimate" canoe or maybe that antigravity backpack, they just don't exist. We generally have to settle for what we find is best for the individual and as long as it gets me out there, I guess I can be content with that.
 
To each his own. I have been trying to master the double blade for a couple of years now, but in a sea kayak, not a canoe. We rent a house on the beach for two weeks each summer and this is the first year that I didn't even bring a canoe - just my sea kayak. I use a 210 Werner Shuna paddle with no feather in an old plastic Capella sea kayak.

https://flic.kr/p/2ri8xwU

Yesterday I was paddling down Lower Pond on the Narrow River with a headwind and against the tide. It would have been a real slog in my canoe, but in my sea kayak it was actually kind of fun. I was pacing myself with a guy in a single rowing shell. He humored me for a while, then took off down the lake. Maybe we should all be rowing. ;)

I have never tried a double blade in a canoe. My boats aren't set up for it - seat is high for kneeing. In open water I use a sit(kneel/hit)-and-switch stroke. Seems to me that you can pretty much match the cadence of a double blade with the with a sit-and-switch stroke on a single blade. I guess I should try it, but these days my solution to long open water crossings in a canoe is to paddle tandem. Two engines beats one almost every time.
 
The thing about a double blade is that you have to hold it up all the time. Unless you are using a Mohawk plastic-aluminum single blade, or the like, the single blade has some floatation. When the paddle is in the water, its flotation helps hold up your arms—you get a little break from having to hold the weight of the paddle. With the double, you have to support the weight of the paddle all the time. And, as has been repeatedly noted in this thread, you generally need a longish (i.e., heavy) double blade in the canoe because of the width of the boat and the paddler’s height above the water.

When sea kayaking, I like to paddle with a Greenland stick. When one blade is in the water, all the weight of the paddle is supported by the water. Euro blades require the paddler to support the entire weight of the paddle all the time. But forget kayaking, we are canoeists here, but it works the same. If you put your single blade vertically in the water with no weight on it, it floats and if it is a decent paddle most of the shaft is above the water line. When the blade is in the water, the water is supporting the weight of the paddle. But it doesn’t work that way for doubles—the paddler holds the weight of the paddle all the time.

Now, let’s add some beam wind. The double blader will paddle more on one side than the other to counteract the wind. So, essentially, they are single blading, using just one side of their double, while they wave the other side around in the wind.

Doubles are useful sometimes in a head wind and when you need a burst of power to attain. But generally, they just make me tired. Let me know if you are interested in my Bending Branches 260. It hasn’t been used since 2019.
 
eckilson said:
In open water I use a sit(kneel/hit)-and-switch stroke. Seems to me that you can pretty much match the cadence of a double blade with the with a sit-and-switch stroke on a single blade.
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In longer crossings especially in wind and waves, and when going up-current, I go into switch paddling with my 48.5" ZRE bent shaft—almost always while kneeling. Kneeling increases my stability and confidence, again especially in wind and waves. As my age has enhanced, while my ankles haven't, I need to switch to a seated position more frequently, but will only do so in calm conditions.

Chip said:
The thing about a double blade is that you have to hold it up all the time. Unless you are using a Mohawk plastic-aluminum single blade, or the like, the single blade has some floatation. When the paddle is in the water, its flotation helps hold up your arms—you get a little break from having to hold the weight of the paddle.
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And if you palm roll the single blade and use an entirely in-water sliced return, the water will support the paddle 100% of the time, which allows effortless use of even my heavier (than carbon) wood paddles.
 
Clearly a double blade versus single is a personal preference. Since we ate sharing our opinions based on our experience I will share mine. I also have extensive practice with single and double blades. I paddled a kayak for over 25 years. I messed with many kayak paddles over that time and felt pretty confident in open sloppy water, whitewater, high winds, upstream etc. I also played with single blades in canoes through out my kayaking days. I was better than average and pretty confident in a tandem canoe but still didn’t appreciate a good single blade. I eventually got tired of climbing in an out of kayak and sitting on floor. I picked up a Trillium solo about 5 years ago. I was worried that a solo canoe couldn’t travel upstream as well as my sea kayak and double blade. I worried about fighting the wind and not having a fast brace on either side. With very little practice I found I could paddle up stream and into the wind just as well and eventually better with my single blade.
When I read about every one using a double blade for wind and speed I can only assume they haven’t learned proper technique. Anyone can pick up a kayak paddle and make a boat go. A canoe paddle takes technique. Single blades are significantly more versatile, efficient and elegant. I can paddle faster, and longer with less wind resistance with my single versus my double. So when I see people using a double I am saddened they have not learned how to utilize a single. The only advantage I lost was shallow water paddling. Double blades angle allows for better performance going up shallow riffles on streams. I just switch to ski poles for those sections with skinny water.
I should add that a beaver or otter tail is a crappy sit and switch paddle. They are wonderful for other uses but your catch will grab air and you will lose significant power. Sit and switch is one of the many strokes needed to master a single blade. Just like a draw, jstroke, backstroke etc. I know folks who are just out to fish, float and explore but could care less about technique or skill building. A double blade offer folks a way to quickly gain enough proficiency to accomplish their goals. A single blade is more challenging to master but the skill has depth and breadth way beyond a double blade.
 
I have very little experience with doubles, but I would agree with Foxyotter that in order to get the most out of a single you will need to "sit and switch." Many single bladers are either reluctant to sit and switch or not yet proficient at it, so they may get better results with a double.

I sit and switch with beaver and otter tails regularly, and although they aren't the best blade choice, I find them efficient. It might depend on how people do the switch. I see experienced trippers on you tube switching sides with their blade over their head and the grip down. These are the same guys that use doubles. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that Canadians are reluctant to switch sides.
 
Typically I only switch when I get tired, or in WW, to paddle/brace on the correct side when a cross draw isn't called for.
I rarely do much lake paddling or long distances upstream, so when I find myself in such a slog a DB is less tiring to me than constantly switching in a shorter fairly rockered boat However my old WW DBs proved way too short and wet for a canoe. I have a BB Angler Navigator on order, 150-165 cm. We'll see how it goes.
 
lowangle al said:
I have very little experience with doubles, but I would agree with Foxyotter that in order to get the most out of a single you will need to "sit and switch." Many single bladers are either reluctant to sit and switch or not yet proficient at it, so they may get better results with a double.
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In my 30+ years of paddling and racing, I have well over 6000 documented miles of sit, or hit and switch as bow paddler in multi seat canoes (C2, C4, voyageur) in Adirondack area and Yukon River races plus team and solo race training. I am not usually a stock solo canoe racer, which utilizes the hit switch as the dominate mode for speed, 4-6 strokes/side or less. My stern paddlers know I don't like to switch sides more often than 8-12 strokes, depending on the particular boat and the requirement for maneuvering at the moment. More strokes/side in longer boats. During the long Yukon races we would sprint on one side at a stroke rate of 80-85 spm for two minutes before switching back to a cruising rate, , just for fun to break the boredom or to make distance on a competitor.
When recreational paddling either solo with a non racing C2 partner, and especially when race training while solo, my preference is not for speed, but rather for muscle workout training. I tend to constantly stay on one side, for say a mile or two, before switching to the other side, just to keep the workout equal on each side. I keep going straight and narrow solo with a heel depending on how the canoe best reacts with a combination of C, and pitch, in my power stroke, along with a rare non hesitating very light J or as necessary if in a wind. Recovery is done quickly and may morph into a full or partial Canadian underwater recovery for variety. Depends on type of paddle I am using.
 
I'm Canadian, and I am very reluctant to play the switchy thing, so Al, I guess you are right. I played around this weekend in my Raven, unloaded, so lots of freeboard. Winds were gusting to almost 50 k per hour, or 30 mph for the metricallly challenged. I paddled for about 3 k into the wind, and although I don't paddle daily anymore, it comes back pretty quick. Basically, I just keep the bow slightly off center to the wind and paddle like a busturd. If I start to lose the advantage on that side, I will switch at that point. Lots of times, I would just come to a stand still and slowly move my bow to the advantage and carry on again. I gotta say, in situations like that the Raven really shines, because it refuses to get locked onto a track, and is very easy to correct. There are a ton a kayaks on that lake, but they were all on shore, I was the only fella out there. Had lots of fun coming back in about a 3rd of the time.
 
memaquay said:
I played around this weekend in my Raven, unloaded, so lots of freeboard. Winds were gusting to almost 50 k per hour, or 30 mph for the metricallly challenged. I paddled for about 3 k into the wind, and although I don't paddle daily anymore, it comes back pretty quick. Basically, I just keep the bow slightly off center to the wind and paddle like a busturd. If I start to lose the advantage on that side, I will switch at that point. Lots of times, I would just come to a stand still and slowly move my bow to the advantage and carry on again. I gotta say, in situations like that the Raven really shines, because it refuses to get locked onto a track, and is very easy to correct.
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I took my fat b*st*rd of a solo out lake paddling last weekend (similar dimensions to the Raven but don't know how similarly they handle) and struggled in even a slight breeze where I would have been fine in one of my longer, skinnier, and less rockered solos.

Assuming a beam wind, in one of my regular solos, I'd just adjust the seat on the fly (probably adding weight to the stern) and away I'd go with the majority of my strokes being on the side the wind is blowing from with a few thrown in here and there on the other side if the wind started winning.

I tried doing that with the fat b*st*rd and while I was able to trim the canoe so the wind didn't want to spin it I was shocked how quickly I was being blown downwind (90 degrees to direction of travel). As I struck off across the lake, with a beam wind, I had to aim my bow well east of my target on the other shore to compensate for being blown downwind. I guess it worked but it sure felt funny crabbing across the lake like that. I've never experienced anything close to that in one of my normal solo canoes, likely due to extra length and less rocker resisting sideways travel.

I will say that when one of the lightly rockered canoes gets blown off course it can be quite hard to correct because the stern is sticky where the fat b*st*rd was easily spun. It sure felt like slow going though. I gotta get some more practice in with that boat...and maybe start paddling it with some weight added.

My single side correction strokes begin to falter when I try putting down real power and the fat b*st*rd was not very amenable to sitting and switching.

Alan
 
yknpdlr said:
In my 30+ years of paddling and racing, I have well over 6000 documented miles of sit, or hit and switch as bow paddler in multi seat canoes (C2, C4, voyageur) in Adirondack area and Yukon River races plus team and solo race training. I am not usually a stock solo canoe racer, which utilizes the hit switch as the dominate mode for speed, 4-6 strokes/side or less. My stern paddlers know I don't like to switch sides more often than 8-12 strokes, depending on the particular boat and the requirement for maneuvering at the moment. More strokes/side in longer boats. During the long Yukon races we would sprint on one side at a stroke rate of 80-85 spm for two minutes before switching back to a cruising rate, , just for fun to break the boredom or to make distance on a competitor.
When recreational paddling either solo with a non racing C2 partner, and especially when race training while solo, my preference is not for speed, but rather for muscle workout training. I tend to constantly stay on one side, for say a mile or two, before switching to the other side, just to keep the workout equal on each side. I keep going straight and narrow solo with a heel depending on how the canoe best reacts with a combination of C, and pitch, in my power stroke, along with a rare non hesitating very light J or as necessary if in a wind. Recovery is done quickly and may morph into a full or partial Canadian underwater recovery for variety. Depends on type of paddle I am using.
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Well, you know I'm not a racer. But I resemble all the rest of that. And, BTW, your long distance mentoring has had a very positive effect. Thank you.
 
I use sit (or kneel) and switch for attainments and sometimes against a strong wind, but I can't imagine that being very effective or sustainable with an animal tail paddle. I have found that I can do better and longer with a carbon bent single than even a carbon double. But as mentioned above, if water gets really shallow while going against current, a double can really help......if one has no pole. ;)
 
memaquay said:
That's interesting Steve, I never thought of using a double blade for a pole, does it hold up in the long run?
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LOL. Nothing compares to a pole for going upstream. ;) In fact, I routinely outrun double bladers even when I can't reach the bottom.

I'll have to ask if anyone wants to try pushing off the bottom with their double, and see if they can keep up. ;)
 
Steve in Idaho said:
I use sit (or kneel) and switch for attainments and sometimes against a strong wind, but I can't imagine that being very effective or sustainable with an animal tail paddle. I have found that I can do better and longer with a carbon bent single than even a carbon double. But as mentioned above, if water gets really shallow while going against current, a double can really help......if one has no pole. ;)
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I have several and love using my long thin feather edge blade otter tail and other straight wood paddles. But they are meant for recreational cruising and multi-technique stroke use. Carbon bents were developed for ultralight weight strong efficient high power canoe racing. You can do a limited variety of "fancy" advanced strokes with them compared to the slicing and front power/back side control strokes of a finely crafted wood paddle in experienced hands. The thing is, most times I am on the water myself, I feel I need to be in some form of training mode with my bent carbon.

By the way, when I "hut", I slide my lower hand up on the shaft as my grip hand quickly moves down to catch the shaft down low as it is transferred over the gunwales with blade down to the other side, losing only minimal time out of the water. I just had to go to my paddle machine to confirm that action since is it done so automatically, not something that takes conscious thought to do or to describe. The blade drives down silently to the new catch point as it submerges downward and slightly back in to match the relative rearward speed of the water flow without making any splash. In C4 and longer boats I race in, the mid-seat paddlers may be outfitted with side-to-side roller sliding seats and they learn to transfer across quickly and in positive exact coordination timing with one another with the same paddle transfer action.

I don't like too frequent "huts" because in that half second of transfer, powered time is lost and the first stroke on the other side may not yield 100% normal full power as your body position adjusts to that side positioning. Done sloppily, easily 10% or more efficiency and speed from full potential is lost by my estimation during the hut until the second full power stroke, if then. That equates to a losing finish time when racing.
 
Last edited:
lowangle al said:
it seems that Canadians are reluctant to switch sides
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I believe Serge Corbin and his many amis are world class switchers.

There is a difference between switching because you can't control the boat with correction strokes on one side because of wind, waves, tiring muscles or lack of technique, and Minnesota switching (Harry Roberts' NATT: North American Touring Technique) as a primary forward stroke. For the latter, lightweight and short bent shaft paddles are the bees knees.
 
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