What leg to push off of. Effect of heeling on forward velocity.

[Glenn MacGrady]

I started pulling on the same side as the paddle stroke and pushing on the opposite (off) side and found it helps in keeping the canoe subtly heeled away from the paddle side and subtly counters the yaw of the stroke. I just alternate between 'hits'.

Tom, I'm not clear on this because I am not informed on hit & switch racing subtleties. Your push-pull leg technique heels the hull away from the paddle side, but then heels the hull to the other side when you switch paddle sides? So, you are essentially rocking the canoe left and right every 6 strokes or so as you switch paddle strokes? If so, I wonder about:

1. Why would you not want to paddle level on the design waterline—unless you were heeling to assist a turn or, which is essentially the same thing, to assist in correcting too much yaw?

2. Wouldn't changing the heel every six strokes or so decrease forward momentum and slow you down? I'm intuiting that constantly rocking the heel would increase skin friction or turbulence drag or both. But I'm not confident in that intuition.

For paddling with a single or double blade, I thought the general leg technique is to extend/push with the paddle side leg while swiveling your paddle side hip/torso aft along with the paddle blade. As demonstrated in this video, particularly starting around 2:40:

 

[tketcham]

Tom, I'm not clear on this because I am not informed on hit & switch racing subtleties. Your push-pull leg technique heels the hull away from the paddle side, but then heels the hull to the other side when you switch paddle sides? So, you are essentially rocking the canoe left and right every 6 strokes or so as you switch paddle strokes?

Yes, I push against the brace on the offside and pull against the brace on the onside to heel the canoe slightly away from the onside. It tells the canoe that I want to exert a bit of pressure against the yaw. And I changed my post to subtly heeling (semantics, I know). It's not that the push and pull on the foot brace causes a noticeable heel because it's not like the power you have with thigh straps in a WW canoe, it's more that it helps me to better control a subtle heel to the offside.

1. Why would you not want to paddle level on the design waterline—unless you were heeling to assist a turn or, which is essentially the same thing, to assist in correcting too much yaw?

Again, the heel is very slight and the hull of the Classic doesn't have a pronounced flat spot or "wings" (see my comments and photo below regarding hull design), so by using a slight heel I can counter the yaw just a bit without noticeably affecting tracking and efficiency. When I want to turn there is much more heeling involved.

For paddling with a single or double blade, I thought the general leg technique is to extend/push with the paddle side leg while swiveling your paddle side hip/torso aft along with the paddle blade. As demonstrated in this video, particularly starting around 2:40:

It is, but I'm using an onside pull/offside push technique that seems to fit my paddling style better. I've been paddling hit-and-switch for decades but I'm still an amateur when compared to a marathon racer and so my technique is a blend of several canoeing "disciplines" that fit my way of paddling hit and switch. I'm rotating my body and using leverage against the foot brace, it's just opposite of the norm to help me better control the slight heeling motion to counter yaw.

And considering about whether heeling affects hull efficiency, and whether to push on the onside or offside, I'm thinking about Olympic sprint class canoe hulls, which are practically round in cross section so they're efficient even when a heeled a bit. (Video link below.) The Classic's hull is fairly rounded for a touring canoe and carries the hull profile well into the fore and aft sections of the canoe so it doesn't have the wing effect of a marathon hull. (See photo below.) And take a look at the canoe sprinters in the linked video, they're pushing off on their offside leg, opposite of the norm for marathon canoers. Now, granted, they're using the high-kneel position, but still, it shows that you can get plenty of leverage using the opposing leg. It may also explain why I prefer a forward canted seat raised up just a bit.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Yes, I push against the brace on the offside and pull against the brace on the onside to heel the canoe slightly away from the onside. It tells the canoe that I want to exert a bit of pressure against the yaw. And I changed my post to subtly heeling (semantics, I know). It's not that the push and pull on the foot brace causes a noticeable heel because it's not like the power you have with thigh straps in a WW canoe, it's more that it helps me to better control a subtle heel to the offside.


Again, the heel is very slight and the hull of the Classic doesn't have a pronounced flat spot or "wings", so by using a slight heel I can counter the yaw just a bit without noticeably affecting tracking and efficiency. When I want to turn there is much more heeling involved.


It is, but I'm using an onside pull/offside push technique that seems to fit my paddling style better. I've been paddling hit-and-switch for decades but I'm still an amateur when compared to a marathon racer and so my technique is a blend of several canoeing "disciplines" that fit my way of paddling hit and switch. I'm rotating my body and using leverage against the foot brace, it's just opposite of the norm to help me better control the slight heeling motion to counter yaw.

And considering about whether heeling affects hull efficiency, and whether to push on the onside or offside, I'm thinking about Olympic sprint class canoe hulls, which are practically round in cross section so they're efficient even when a heeled a bit. (Video link below.) The Classic's hull is fairly rounded for a touring canoe and carries the hull profile well into the fore and aft sections of the canoe so it doesn't have the wing effect of a marathon hull. (See photo below.) And take a look at the canoe sprinters in the linked video, they're pushing off on their offside leg, opposite of the norm for marathon canoers. Now, granted, they're using the high-kneel position, but still, it shows that you can get plenty of leverage using the opposing leg. It may also explain why I prefer a forward canted seat raised up just a bit.


Olympic Canoe Sprinters

That was fun to watch.

I've noticed over the last year or so that I tend to induce that little offside heel during recovery when going for speed and distance in the Solitude and now the Moccasin. Same offside push with foot (or knee in the Moccasin), but no pull for lack of a strap. Next time I'm in the Solitude, I'm going to try the strap for sure.

 

[tketcham]

I've noticed over the last year or so that I tend to induce that little offside heel during recovery when going for speed and distance in the Solitude and now the Moccasin. Same offside push with foot (or knee in the Moccasin), but no pull for lack of a strap. Next time I'm in the Solitude, I'm going to try the strap for sure.

I think you'll like the addition then, especially in the Solitude. The straps are cheap and easy to test out so you won't be throwing money away.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

For paddling with a single or double blade, I thought the general leg technique is to extend/push with the paddle side leg while swiveling your paddle side hip/torso aft along with the paddle blade. As demonstrated in this video, particularly starting around 2:40:

It is, but I'm using an onside pull/offside push technique that seems to fit my paddling style better.

And take a look at the canoe sprinters in the linked video, they're pushing off on their offside leg, opposite of the norm for marathon canoers. Now, granted, they're using the high-kneel position, but still, it shows that you can get plenty of leverage using the opposing leg.

I find it highly unconvincing to compare the biomechanics of paddling from a seated position with both feet on a foot bar (with or without loops) to the biomechanics of paddling from the high-kneel position of an ICF canoe sprinter.

When seated with feet out front on a foot bar (and whether using a single or double blade), I think it's indisputable that you get the most efficient biomechanical paddling force by extending/pushing off your paddling side leg, which translates into twisting your hips, torso and shoulder aft to the paddling side, in sync with the aft path of the paddle blade.

The paddling posture and biomechanics of a high-kneel canoe sprinter are completely different. That paddler extends and pushes off the one and only leg that is in front of him. The foot of the extended leg is on a foot board or brace, and the knee of the rearward leg is in a knee cup. The leg extended in front of the paddler has to be the off-side leg because that will pre-rotate the hips, torso and shouders toward the on-side and, during the stroke, will allow efficient continued on-side rotation. The paddler can't have the onside leg being the extended one because that would pre-rotate the hips, torso and shoulder in the wrong (off-side) direction. During the forward paddle pull, the paddler would then have to rotate hips, torso and shoulders to the paddle side against their opposite, pre-rotated position to the off-side. That would make no sense and be pretzle-ly inefficient.

You can try this easily by just high kneeling on the floor, alternating which leg is extended. It is obvious that extending the on-side leg prevents the efficient application of paddling force from the legs to the hips to the torso to the shoulder to the paddling arms.

That all said, those of us who are not racers probably paddle from all positions and with all techniques without using maximal force application efficiencies, and if subtely pushing off the footbar with your off-side legs fits your evolved paddling style, then so it is. I'm certainly an inefficent hit & switcher for many "ideal" technique reasons, one of which is that I do it while kneeling.

I'm still unclear in my mind about whether: (1) in general, heeling a canoe reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling the canoe level on the design waterline; and (2) whether alternately bobbing the heel between left and right reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling on a steady heel to one side.

Note that I'm focused on forward stroking velocity and momentum. We know that heeling can enhance turns. If there is an effect of heeling on forward velocity, it probably varies with hull shape, especially something as radical as the pointed winged sides of marathon pro canoes. But beyond the variations in hull shapes, I just wonder if there are generally applicable, empirical rules that apply to the hydrophysics of these heeling questions.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I'm still unclear in my mind about whether: (1) in general, heeling a canoe reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling the canoe level on the design waterline; and (2) whether alternately bobbing the heel between left and right reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling on a steady heel to one side.

So am I. And it's probably one of a number of things I do that are suboptimal. But when I do it, I'm paddling on one side and switching only occasionally to avoid fatigue.

 

[lowangle al]

I'm still unclear in my mind about whether: (1) in general, heeling a canoe reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling the canoe level on the design waterline; and (2) whether alternately bobbing the heel between left and right reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling on a steady heel to one side.

I've recently come to the conclusion that being heeled over does reduce forward velocity. For me, when heeled towards my paddle side it eliminates the need for correction strokes because it causes my boat to carve towards that side. This a great energy savings for me, but it isn't quite as fast as hit and switch with no lean and no correction strokes.

As far as the rocking back and forth with every switch, I don't feel any slowing down of the boat. I mentioned in another recent post that I can switch sides of my lean as fast as I switch paddle sides. This gets the boat carving towards my new paddle side before taking the first stroke on that side. That first stroke is all power with no correction.

In both of the above cases I am carving with my stern. In the first case I could be in either the stern seat or further forward on the bow seat backwards or even more centralized from the stern thwart. Either way I have a bow light trim. As for the rocking, I've only been able to do that effectively from the stern seat in tandems, because of the width. I would assume it can be done effectively from a centralized position in a narrow solo boat.

I was out this AM with my ballast way up in the bow, paddling from a centralized position. I must have lost my bow light trim because the lean made the boat turn away from my paddle side. This caused me to need a lot of correction. I was probably slightly pinning the bow.

When I say "bow light trim" I should really say "stern heavy trim." This is because the bow, being out of the water isn't doing anything, all the action is caused by the stern.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'm still unclear in my mind about whether: (1) in general, heeling a canoe reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling the canoe level on the design waterline; and (2) whether alternately bobbing the heel between left and right reduces forward velocity and momentum compared to paddling on a steady heel to one side.

So am I. And it's probably one of a number of things I do that are suboptimal. But when I do it, I'm paddling on one side and switching only occasionally to avoid fatigue.

A few weeks ago I was paddling my Swift Keewaydin 15 on a lake trip with @Tsuga8 (Alex). Alex asked if I paddle the canoe with a heel to the paddling side. I said no because I don't intentionally do that in any narrow solo canoe; I only intentionally do it when soloing a tandem canoe. However, after paddling behind me for a while on the lakes, Alex told me that I do paddle with a subtle heel to my on-side. That was news to me, and certainly not something I was intentionally doing. Maybe I do that in all my solo canoes all the time. I now simply don't know, and further don't know if I do it more or less with my various paddles, which have different lengths, blade shapes and blade angles.

Another canoe physics complication: Even if a subtle heel to the paddling side decreases forward momentum and velocity a bit, is that offset by being able to get the paddle more vertical to the water and closer to the keel line? Again, I don't know. If I heel a bit unconsciously, I suppose I'm doing it because it instinctively feels more comfortable to me, not because I'm intentionally trying to create or balance paddling efficiencies.

 

[lowangle al]

One thing I have noticed is that there is a difference between a subtle heel and a more dramatic heel. With a subtle heel you do get a more comfortable and vertical stroke which I'm sure has benefits. With a more extreme heel you will get the boat carving which can eliminate the need for correction. If I lean too much I actually need to do a sweep rather than a J to turn away from my paddle side. I find this to be true from a bow seat backwards position as well as being more stern heavy. The key is being stern heavy, which is good because that is the trim you will have in a solo boat with no ballast.

Lean more and feel the carve. To get more carve sit further back on the seat and lean your weight back. If Tom Foster can lean back and get his highly rocketed WW boats to carve with the stern I bet it will work with a typical solo boat.

 

[yknpdlr]

Speaking from a racing point of view, and I am not a frequent solo canoe racer, those in solo race boats do hit and switch about every 4-6 strokes and can't help but to heel at least somewhat on the paddle side which does help to carve to counteract paddle induced yaw. There must be some degradation of speed, but worth it for yaw control. This frequent H&S is the biggest reason why I prefer not to race that style solo. There is no such effect with C2 and greater canoe race canoes.

When I paddle to train or recreate/trip solo, much like Steve stated, I switch sides occasionally only to avoid fatigue and also to give opposite side muscles an equal workout. which after all is the primary purpose of paddling solo in that mode. Per pitch paddle stroke providing minimal correction, observed bow yaw is certainly less than 3-5 degrees. The shoulder twist during power and then the untwist torque on recovery in a lightweight solo also visibly helps to counter yaw.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I've moved the posts above from the Thoughts on Grasse River/GRB Newman Classic? thread because they are tangential there and because they pose interesting questions that deserve their own topical thread.

 

[yknpdlr]

Watch this and other videos by racer Kevin Olson, at about the 8:30 point he talks about leg position and push.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Another canoe physics complication: Even if a subtle heel to the paddling side decreases forward momentum and velocity a bit, is that offset by being able to get the paddle more vertical to the water and closer to the keel line?

That was going to be my next question.....sort of. What I've been doing in the Solitude and the Moccasin is the opposite, heeling slightly to the offside during the recovery phase. I'm not sure, because I didn't really think about it - but it may have began as a result of arthritis issues in my shoulder, elbows and lower back. I honestly don't know. But at least in my longer zero rocker solos, that seems to reduce the need for correction to almost nothing. I haven't spent enough time yet in the Wildfire to comment on what I'm doing in it regarding that.

So does that cancel out any loss of speed induced by the slight heel? At my level of skill, I don't know if that's even measurable.

All I know is that my endurance has steadily progressed over the last couple of years - but that could be simply related to my general recovery from my early 2023 ordeal and spending more time with a paddle in my hands.

 

[tketcham]

I find it highly unconvincing to compare the biomechanics of paddling from a seated position with both feet on a foot bar (with or without loops) to the biomechanics of paddling from the high-kneel position of an ICF canoe sprinter.

I knew that was going to come back to haunt me. In my defense, I was trying (and failed) to point out that you can get leverage from either leg and I should have emphasized that the technique I mention requires foot straps to be effective. It's the push/pull combination that makes it work for me.

And for anecdotal reinforcement (as in, there isn't a YouTube video), last night while chatting with a canoeing friend I introduced the topic of paddling technique while hit and switch paddling a fast solo touring or marathon C1 canoe. The person I was talking with is one of the most experienced canoeists I know and has raced in open C1 downriver, downriver combined, and marathon C1, and he paddles a Wenonah Advantage for fun. I didn't mention my apparently backwards approach to hit and switch but simply asked how he used a foot brace with straps. His answer: It depends on a lot of factors, including wind, waves, moving water, etc., but when he uses foot straps he typically pushes against the offside and pulls on the onside with just a very slight heel to the offside so the canoe is wanting to turn towards the paddling side. [This helps counter the yaw.] I didn't prompt for that answer but there it is: I'm not alone in my approach.

In "Canoe Racing" by Peter Heed and Dick Mansfield; 1992, most of the book is directed towards C2 boats and paddling but they do mention things that are applicable to C1 canoes and this discussion. In the section on paddling technique [page 53] they ask: "What are your legs doing during all this?" And they answer: "The most important function of the feet and legs and buttocks is to lock you in the canoe." And, "Some paddlers lock their legs and only move them to loosen the muscles up before a portage. Others will 'cycle' their legs as they stroke." There's no mention of push vs pull or which side during each stroke but I'm assuming that even during the cycling stage the feet and legs are locked into position during the power phase, regardless of pushing or pulling.

They also discuss leaning (heeling) the canoe to affect a turn towards the side opposite the heel. That's basically how a C1 paddler can help offset the tendency for the canoe to want to turn (yaw) in the direction opposite of the power stroke. This entry [page 59] alludes to the notion regarding heeling and adversely affecting forward speed: "But what happens when you want to intentionally turn?" Their answer: "This is accomplished by leaning [heeling] the canoe in combination with subtle adjusting strokes such as the quarter draw and sweep. Any time you utilize an adjusting stroke, you are losing some forward motive power. So whenever possible - particularly for gradual turns - a lean combined with normal forward strokes is all that you will require."

My take on that? If you subtly heel a fast solo touring or C1 marathon canoe you can offset the yaw inherent with the power phase. And they mention on page 60 that while heeling the canoe, the stern paddler (and by default, the solo paddler) lifts up on the side opposite of the lean (heel). So if I'm paddling on my right side, I would pull up on that side and push down on my left side to enhance the heel, and the canoe will want to turn to the right. Done subtly, as if doing a slow turn, the canoe will exert a bit of counterforce against yaw and travel a straighter path, requiring fewer switches. Seems to work and I go along plenty fast, so that's what I do.

Heed and Mansfield also include this comment about gradual turns and efficiency: "So, use a lean [heel] when you want to maintain your forward speed and just need to turn gradually." [My emphasis.] I believe that what they are saying is that a slight heel does not adversely affect forward speed. My own experience bears this out and my canoeist buddy concurs. But as mentioned by you and others, everyone has a unique style based on individual experiences.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I am assuming that any force that turns the boat will rob some speed. The only question in my mind is which robs the least. Or does the effect of two forces (paddle vs heel) canceling each other out rob more than using one or the other alone for correction?

Things we overthink while we can't get in the boat?

 

[tketcham]

I am assuming that any force that turns the boat will rob some speed.

Paddling yaw turns the canoe. Heeling slightly turns/carves the canoe. But if I use those two factors to my advantage I don't have to use as much correction or switch sides as often. I like that. I'm not racing so speed is more of a relative thing than an absolute.

Things we overthink while we can't get in the boat?

Luckily paddling clears my mind.

 

[tketcham]

Speaking from a racing point of view, and I am not a frequent solo canoe racer, those in solo race boats do hit and switch about every 4-6 strokes and can't help but to heel at least somewhat on the paddle side which does help to carve to counteract paddle induced yaw.

Interesting because from what I've read and experienced (but I'm not a marathon racer) a heel to the paddling side in a fast, zero-rocker solo canoe induces a turn (carve) to the offside, not the onside. That's why a post or wedge works well with those hulls. Maybe modern marathon canoe hull designs will also turn to the onside with an onside heel?

 

[tketcham]

I was doing some web exploring regarding heeling and turning/carving (to make sure I'm not totally confused) and this article on the FreeStyle Canoeing website popped up:

Heeling vs Carving by Marc Ornstein
It has a good description of turning with a heel vs carving with a heel plus some great illustrations of how a heel affects the hull below the surface.

And the following entry directly applies to the topic of this thread, which is mostly about heeling/carving to offset yaw and increase paddling efficiency, which to me implies speed:

"Carving can also be used as a method of directional control while traveling. Even with a nearly perfect forward stroke the canoe will yaw (turn away from the paddle side) slightly, requiring some sort of correction. A J stroke is most commonly used to counter the yaw effect. An alternative is to heel the canoe away from the turn which causes the hull to carve toward the turn. By controlling the degree of heel, the yaw effect may be reduced or even neutralized, and the canoe kept running straight, with no correction strokes required."