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tracking in bow seat vs center seat

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Hey all. So I have a dagger reflection 15 and I love it. I believe it's asym. It has a dedicated center seat which I had installed from eds canoes that doubles as a yoke. I sometimes paddle in the bow facing backwards and on my last paddle felt that tracked better. When in the center seat, it seems to require more of a pry at the end of the J than does the bow seat.
Is this a common thing? Or is it just technique.
I sometimes paddle from the center seat with a slight draw/sweep and go into a J, similar to a C stroke, and that seems to do the trick.
 
You have changed the in water hull shape when you sit aft. Likely weighting the stern down literally acts as a skeg which aids in tracking. The disadvantage is that you lose all control over the bow which is apt to rebel in windy conditions.
Technique helps.. Try to keep a vertical stroke and never carry the J part in back of your hip. The non correcting needed J stroke is pretty short and ends at your hip.. not in back. Too far back and you have made your forward stroke a sweep and you need to pry harder. I didn't say intentional sweep but look at your arm if you carry the stroke back past your hip.. The way the human body is built we can't help but make a sweep out of a long stroke.
 
I'd also say when you seat further astern your correction stroke will have more leverage than when sitting in the middle, making it seem more powerful with less effort exerted.

When sitting in the middle it's important that your forward stroke impart as little turning force as possible. This will allow you to keep your corrections to a minimum.

Alan
 
You have changed the in water hull shape when you sit aft. Likely weighting the stern down literally acts as a skeg which aids in tracking. The disadvantage is that you lose all control over the bow which is apt to rebel in windy conditions.
Technique helps.. Try to keep a vertical stroke and never carry the J part in back of your hip. The non correcting needed J stroke is pretty short and ends at your hip.. not in back. Too far back and you have made your forward stroke a sweep and you need to pry harder. I didn't say intentional sweep but look at your arm if you carry the stroke back past your hip.. The way the human body is built we can't help but make a sweep out of a long stroke.

So the J behind my hip is part of the problem. Hm. Where should the paddle be in relation to my hip when my wrist turns over to perform the J? I do find it harder to turn my thumb down all the way in this seat unless I'm kneeling. Too far from the water.
 
It is so interesting how many different responses you get. My father paddled an OT camper for many many years from the bow and swears by doing the J as a rudder way behind him. But perhaps that is not the most efficient method.
 
When paddling from the center (always for me) I usually do something along the lines of the Canadian stroke if I'm doing some sort of correction (I often paddling sit and switch). If I'm doing a J stroke from the center I always do it from farther back for extra leverage. But the key, at least for me, is to stop providing power at the hip. The power phase of my stroke ends early and the blade just coasts farther back behind me until I do the correction. This keeps it from unintentionally turning the canoe as much.

Alan
 
When paddling from the center (always for me) I usually do something along the lines of the Canadian stroke if I'm doing some sort of correction (I often paddling sit and switch). If I'm doing a J stroke from the center I always do it from farther back for extra leverage. But the key, at least for me, is to stop providing power at the hip. The power phase of my stroke ends early and the blade just coasts farther back behind me until I do the correction. This keeps it from unintentionally turning the canoe as much.

Alan

That makes sense. If you paddle all the way behind you the forward stroke essentially becomes a sweep, sounds like. So maybe more feathering and less pulling!
 
The answer to your question is proper technique.

You can paddle a canoe straight from the bow seat, a central seat, the bow seat backwards, or the stern seat. The forward stroke will require somewhat different techniques from each position.

Now think about the sitting position for all solo canoe (and kayak) experts -- marathon racers, Olympic sprint racers, outrigger ocean racers, whitewater canoe paddlers, freestyle canoe paddlers, pack canoe paddlers. They all sit in a CENTER seat, or slightly behind center.

Why? Several reasons.

First, in the center you can execute forward correction strokes at the catch (the C stroke), at the pull (the pitch stroke), at the end (the J stroke), or on an in-water return (the Canadian or palm-rolled Indian strokes). Most advanced canoeists use a combination of these corrections from a centralized seat.

Second, in the center you can reach both the on-side and off-side bow quadrants of the canoe to execute a variety of powerful turning strokes such as the bow draw, the bow pry (or jam or wedge), the cross-bow draw, and the cross-bow pry.

Third, from the center you can execute the most efficient hit & switch technique at high stroke rates with short, bent shaft paddles.

Fourth, on a center seat your center of gravity is over or close to over the canoe's pivot point (center of lateral resistance), so you can execute turns most efficiently.

Fifth, you can heel (lean) the boat most confidently for turns from the center because it's the widest point of the canoe.

Sixth, from a center seat you can pitch the bow down by moving forward on your knees to accentuate an even sharper turn.

Seventh, from a central seat you are in the best position to execute elegant drawing sideslips and prying sideslips, one of the most useful maneuvers in woody small streams and whitewater.

Eighth, in the center or slightly behind you are in the (gear-less) position that best trims the canoe onto its designed waterline and rockerline -- i.e., not having a uselessly airborne bow.

Ninth, with your centers of mass and bodily windage over the pivot point of the canoe on a centralized seat, you are best position to resist and compensate for wind-cocking and lee-cocking in strong winds.

In conclusion, your father and mine were wrong. Being in a centralized seat is optimal.

How far behind your hip you bring a propulsion stroke is a matter of technique and experience, which can be affected by the length of paddle you are using, the type of paddle (straight or bent), and your stroke rate (when racing or accelerating, you will pull out earlier; when lazily cruising, you can dangle back longer).

TECHNIQUE is everything for single blade paddling, and it can always be improved with formal instruction, long practice, and serious experimentation with different types of hulls, seating and paddles.
 
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I pretty much agree with everything Glann has just said, and echo it.

If I need a large quick direction change, such as on a twisty stream, depending on force of need, I will often allow the J to go far behind me and strongly apply the paddle face either left or right to strongly swing the bow toward the desired direction, adding a strong draw as necessary (which opposes the J correction direction). Sometimes even leaning way backwards to apply more effective force away from the canoe pivot point. I do this regardless if I am sitting center or stern (or backwards bow). If not racing, for forward cruising in a straight line, I am most comfortable all day with the pitch stroke, or the Canadian, depending somewhat on what kind of paddle I am using, short carbon bent, or long straight wood. Occasionally when needed I throw in a partial C stroke. I don't switch sides very often if not racing. The pitch is essentially an early application of the J during the power phase, angling the outer edge of the blade forward at a slight loss of power, but at the gain of not needing to a full (or any) J at or behind my hip. Conversely the Canadian is essentially a very elongated J with underwater recovery. The amount of blade rotation of the underwater paddle during recovery determines the amount of correction that is applied.
 
So the J behind my hip is part of the problem. Hm. Where should the paddle be in relation to my hip when my wrist turns over to perform the J? I do find it harder to turn my thumb down all the way in this seat unless I'm kneeling. Too far from the water.

Wrist of the shaft hand needs not torque over. Envision it as a gooseneck retaining boundaries of where the shaft goes but never with a firm grip. What has to turn over is the thumb of the grip hand but just mometarily.
Then do a palm roll to go from thumb down to thumb up. The paddle does not move just your grip hand

In this video just pay attention to the grip hand

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=6cce2bc86314028342503bb068180162&action=view
 
The first year I raced the 90 miler, I developed terrible painful tendonitis in my wrists lasting for days after the race. Same with a couple of other voyageur partners with me. I then learned that my shaft hand had to remain stiff at the wrist, as if it was splinted with a stick and tape, even though those fingers wrap on to the shaft with a relatively loose grip, allowing the shaft to rotate with the J or pitch. I had no more wrist problems after that change of technique. As power is applied especially with a bent racing paddle you keep a comfortable grasp on top at the grip, there is a fair amount of down pressure provided by the grip hand during the power phase. In addition to moving from a forward catch to recover at the hip, the paddle goes through an inline pivoting rotation, pivoting somewhere near the water line. That action will bring the blade to the hip even sooner ready for a quick recovery.
 
When going solo heavy, I paddle from the rear seat and put mu gear as far foreward as I can sometimes with a gallon or 2 of water there for ballast. this leaves me with a nice,narrow paddling station.
 
Chansta,

Lot's of great written advice here about how to do it correctly. If you want to see how it's done correctly, there are a ton of videos out there on the various strokes. Be careful, however, because not all are created equal.

If you don't mind paying a fair download fee, Becky Mason, daughter of famous Canadian canoeist/filmographer Bill Mason, has two terrific instructional videos on solo canoeing and the various strokes called Basic Classic Solo Canoeing and Advanced Classic Solo Canoeing. (Bonus: I think I saw yellowcanoe's real name in the credits in one or both videos).

Here's the link where you can download Becky's videos: https://www.redcanoes.ca/paddling-videos

If free videos are more your speed, Ray Goodwin, England's most famous canoeist, recently posted some (in my opinion) good videos on the J and Indian (silent) stroke. The experts here will probably pick poor Ray apart for bringing his strokes too far past his hip, but Ray knows what he is doing.

Ray's J stroke video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmExaexsCAQ

Ray's Indian (Silent) stroke here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UIa8bRdOPc

Best,

Al
 
While Becky's video is very good, I think Caleb Davis offers a more rounded and complete traditional flatwater canoeing instruction video that includes solo and tandem canoes. Well worth $20 on http://www.newfound.com/video.htm. There is also a very good instruction video on paddle making by Caleb.
 
When going solo heavy, I paddle from the rear seat and put mu gear as far foreward as I can sometimes with a gallon or 2 of water there for ballast. this leaves me with a nice,narrow paddling station.

You've owned a gazillion high end solo canoes with central seating, Turtle. Sure, any experienced canoeist can paddle a tandem from the stern, but are you seriously advocating (especially for newbies who'll read this thread) that stern paddling a tandem canoe is your preferred solo hull and ideal paddling station?
 
For many years I paddled different tandems solo. Up here in Northern Ontario, dedicated solo's were a rare bird. My first one was a J. Winters Osprey that I built probably around 25 years ago, and I quickly realized I wasn't going back to tandems. I do prefer a position somewhat back of centre though, and usually mount my seats with the front 9 inches aft of centre. Just seems to be the sweet spot for me. It's still hard to find solo canoes up here, my buddy had to drive to Winnipeg to get one. I don't now why, but many people up here think of solo canoes as an American thing, and especially solo canoes with kayak paddles, not that I want to revisit that.
 
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