Thoughts on the Dragonfly 15

[dutchlennart]

Sadlly i am of limited help. As far as i know no Dragonfly mark 1 or 2 have made it into europe. Certainly i did not paddle one.

I find the topic very interesting. As I like paddling in similar fashion. Altough i have a couple of decades before i am 77. I admire your love of paddling and nature and the quest of a how to keep going at your age and the same for Glenn

 

[Bill Fryer]

Glenn, the Dragonfly just rounds up into the wind strongly, and I struggle to even stay off at an angle. Maybe I am dealing with more wind than is common back east (east of Nebraska). I have been living in Wyoming, eastern Washington, Nevada, and now the mountains of Colorado. I’m fine until the wind kicks up into the upper teens and my problems become a struggle in the 20’s+, which is very common. I thought the increased bow height of the 15 was meant to help balance that out.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've found the best way to counteract the bow wanting to point into the wind is to add more weight to the stern. A dry bag partially filled with water often does the trick if there is no gear to shift rearward. Some boats require more counter weight than others.

Alan

 

[NikonF5user]

I've found the best way to counteract the bow wanting to point into the wind is to add more weight to the stern. A dry bag partially filled with water often does the trick if there is no gear to shift rearward. Some boats require more counter weight than others.

Alan

My Boy Scouts canoe instructor used to say "weight towards the wind" - wind from the front, weight in the front - wind from the rear, weight in the rear...

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I am also watching this thread closely. The DF 15 seems to be a real good candidate for me to take traveling to multiple waters on a single trip. I wish there was a Swift dealer closer out West though.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I'd also like to see a head to head comparison between that and the Phoenix.

 

[RPATCH]

I'd also like to see a head to head comparison between that and the Phoenix.

Maybe I can help as I have a Phoenix in the IXP layup as well. The two canoes paddle very differently. I like my Phoenix and plan to keep it. It's a very confidence inspiring boat. It's my pick to use in rocky rivers as I don't worry about scratching it. That also makes it a good loaner for friends. It's not nearly as responsive or playfull as the DF15. It's not as efficient either. I think the Phoenix runs wet. Keep the bailer handy in big wave trains. But overall, it's a very competent canoe that I'm comfortable in and appreciate its capabilities. I'd rather paddle the DF15 most of the time.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Maybe I can help as I have a Phoenix in the IXP layup as well. The two canoes paddle very differently. I like my Phoenix and plan to keep it. It's a very confidence inspiring boat. It's my pick to use in rocky rivers as I don't worry about scratching it. That also makes it a good loaner for friends. It's not nearly as responsive or playfull as the DF15. It's not as efficient either. I think the Phoenix runs wet. Keep the bailer handy in big wave trains. But overall, it's a very competent canoe that I'm comfortable in and appreciate its capabilities. I'd rather paddle the DF15 most of the time.

Thanks.
Besides rocky rivers, under what conditions do you prefer the Phoenix? I'm guessing wind?

 

[RPATCH]

Thanks.
Besides rocky rivers, under what conditions do you prefer the Phoenix? I'm guessing wind?

That's about it. I don't find the DF15 to be too bad in the wind, but I haven't had it out in really bad conditions yet. I'm inserting some interesting pictures of the DF15 (blue) next to a Hemlock SRT (red) and Curtis Dragonfly (white). You can get some idea of how it compares looking at the bottoms and the sides. The DF15 has finer ends than the SRT.

And this is one of the reasons we go to the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

That's about it. I don't find the DF15 to be too bad in the wind, but I haven't had it out in really bad conditions yet. I'm inserting some interesting pictures of the DF15 (blue) next to a Hemlock SRT (red) and Curtis Dragonfly (white). You can get some idea of how it compares looking at the bottoms and the sides. The DF15 has finer ends than the SRT.

And this is one of the reasons we go to the Western PA Solo Canoe Rendezvous.

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Thanks.

You're making me feel better about missing the deal (out of ignorance) on the Blacklite Phoenix a few years ago.

I know it sounds crazy, but as I um...refine my paddling activity with age, I find myself wanting to pare down to just a couple of solos and a couple of tandems. Something that would fill in for the Wildfire and the Solitude simultaneously (I know, I know) would see me spending almost all my time with one boat. I know I would have to give up a little maneuverability and a little wind advantage - and maybe some speed if you count ignoring faster canoes that I might find. At this point, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to drive anything longer than about 15' faster anyway.

I think I actually could be content with just the Wildfire, but the P15 certainly looks perfect for me. Did I mention I wish there was a Swift dealer out West?

 

[gumpus]

Glenn, the Dragonfly just rounds up into the wind strongly, and I struggle to even stay off at an angle. Maybe I am dealing with more wind than is common back east (east of Nebraska). I have been living in Wyoming, eastern Washington, Nevada, and now the mountains of Colorado. I’m fine until the wind kicks up into the upper teens and my problems become a struggle in the 20’s+, which is very common. I thought the increased bow height of the 15 was meant to help balance that out.

My Osprey is probably my favorite solo ever, but not in strong wind. The boat is basically uncontrollable in strong quartering tailwinds even with sliding seat all the way back (it's OK if you go slow). DF15 looks similar to me with quite a bit of differential rocker and more volume so that's what makes me wonder how it would be in big wind. My Osprey's ideal load is 160-260; it's a perfect fit yet I get blown around. If my dog was much bigger the DF15 might be my ideal boat.

Regarding lay-ups and cracking I had a friend crack my Blackhawk Zephyr by honking on tie-down straps and the Blackhawk lay-ups are generally very strong. I think I could crack any boat with straps (especially a stiff boat); I would not blame the Hemlock lay-up. Swift's mainstream Kevlar Fusion lay-up may be somewhat susceptible to spider cracks...especially in the chines just above the core. I remember one post from a guy with hundreds of spider cracks on his heavily used Swift. I've never seen a post suggesting they are a real problem. Personally I like a gelcoat so I don't have to be careful at put-ins and takeouts and for normal (?) rock collisions; one time submerged rebar actually lifted my Osprey...not sure how a skincoat would have done. But if I was dropping hard onto rocks I'd probably want a more flexible lay-up. As Alan said I bet you could pick any lay-up you want; outfitters rent ultralights.

 

[RPATCH]

My Osprey is probably my favorite solo ever, but not in strong wind. The boat is basically uncontrollable in strong quartering tailwinds even with sliding seat all the way back (it's OK if you go slow). DF15 looks similar to me with quite a bit of differential rocker and more volume so that's what makes me wonder how it would be in big wind. My Osprey's ideal load is 160-260; it's a perfect fit yet I get blown around. If my dog was much bigger the DF15 might be my ideal boat.

Regarding lay-ups and cracking I had a friend crack my Blackhawk Zephyr by honking on tie-down straps and the Blackhawk lay-ups are generally very strong. I think I could crack any boat with straps (especially a stiff boat); I would not blame the Hemlock lay-up. Swift's mainstream Kevlar Fusion lay-up may be somewhat susceptible to spider cracks...especially in the chines just above the core. I remember one post from a guy with hundreds of spider cracks on his heavily used Swift. I've never seen a post suggesting they are a real problem. Personally I like a gelcoat so I don't have to be careful at put-ins and takeouts and for normal (?) rock collisions; one time submerged rebar actually lifted my Osprey...not sure how a skincoat would have done. But if I was dropping hard onto rocks I'd probably want a more flexible lay-up. As Alan said I bet you could pick any lay-up you want; outfitters rent ultralights.

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I should add, since you mentioned it, it's very easy to skid the stern on the DF15. On paper, it's only 1/2" less rocker in the stern.

 

[Tryin']

@RPATCH

How much weight have you put in your DF15, and where do you think the performance transitions lie?

Like: 200lbs is too light, 200lbs is on the high side for standing waves, 200lbs is overloaded, etc. Obviously, I am just using the figure of 200 as a place holder, but in your experience, what are those points of reduced performance? Also, does the DF15 seem to be sensitive to where the weight is carried. We all know a boat with a 300lb paddler handles much differently that a boat with a 200lb paddler and two 50lb packs low in the keel.

 

[NikonF5user]

Something that would fill in for the Wildfire

ain't no boat that fills in for a WildFIRE!!!!

 

[RPATCH]

@RPATCH

How much weight have you put in your DF15, and where do you think the performance transitions lie?

Like: 200lbs is too light, 200lbs is on the high side for standing waves, 200lbs is overloaded, etc. Obviously, I am just using the figure of 200 as a place holder, but in your experience, what are those points of reduced performance? Also, does the DF15 seem to be sensitive to where the weight is carried. We all know a boat with a 300lb paddler handles much differently that a boat with a 200lb paddler and two 50lb packs low in the keel.

Other than a day paddle, I've only paddled it on a class I/II river on a 9 day trip with about a 350 lb load. It did not feel overloaded (except when I had to carry everything). I usually load a little stern heavy and this is no exception. I kept a 2-1/2 gallon jug of filtered water behind my seat that I could adjust trim with. I got this canoe so I would have a maneuverable canoe for heavily laden far north river trips. I haven't had it out in enough conditions to give you more exact handling characteristics, but so far I think it was a good choice. I just returned from 13 days of paddling in the Everglades in one of the many iterations of David Yost's solo trippers and decided that next time, I'll take the DF15. It is efficient enough and I find it more enjoyable to paddle.

 

[Tryin']

Other than a day paddle, I've only paddled it on a class I/II river on a 9 day trip with about a 350 lb load. It did not feel overloaded (except when I had to carry everything). I usually load a little stern heavy and this is no exception. I kept a 2-1/2 gallon jug of filtered water behind my seat that I could adjust trim with. I got this canoe so I would have a maneuverable canoe for heavily laden far north river trips. I haven't had it out in enough conditions to give you more exact handling characteristics, but so far I think it was a good choice. I just returned from 13 days of paddling in the Everglades in one of the many iterations of David Yost's solo trippers and decided that next time, I'll take the DF15. It is efficient enough and I find it more enjoyable to paddle.

Thank you. The 375 range is where I find a lot of my loads. Of course, I am starting with a 265lb paddler...

 

[lowangle al]

The Dragonfly will not point downwind in a blow no matter what I've tried.

Whenever I encounter this I attribute the problem to what is going on below the surface of the water. I think the wind pushes the water and creates a current. I think this current wants to push your stern downwind. The force of the moving water has more effect on your hull than the force of the wind. You may want to change your trim, especially if you're stern heavy.

 

[Alan Gage]

Whenever I encounter this I attribute the problem to what is going on below the surface of the water. I think the wind pushes the water and creates a current. I think this current wants to push your stern downwind. The force of the moving water has more effect on your hull than the force of the wind. You may want to change your trim, especially if you're stern heavy.

In my experience I do not find this to be the case. Moving weight to the stern usually fixes this issue but that should make it worse if it was current rather than wind. Kayaks seem much less affected by the wind than canoes and I can only attribute this to much less hull exposed to wind above the water.

Alan

 

[Steve in Idaho]

ain't no boat that fills in for a WildFIRE!!!!

Yeah, I should just shut up and paddle.