Now that this boat has been out for a year, I was wondering if folks on this forum have any use experience with the new design. I have had an original Dragonfly since 1988 and never found a canoe I liked better. But I am getting old, going on 77, and would really like a bit more stability and ease. My only other problem has always been wind - I live in a very windy area and struggle in the wind, mostly to turn and go downwind. I have wondered if the much increased bow height has improved the dynamic balance in the wind. Any experience and thoughts would be appreciated. I haven't paddled one personally - it's over 1,000 miles to a dealer. But if it looks like a good idea, a trip would be in order.
Thoughts on the Dragonfly 15
- Thread starter Bill Fryer
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I know nothing about the boat but this thread might have some interesting info if you haven't seen it.
The New Swift/DY Redesign of the Dragonfly
In collaboration with the ubiquitous and eternal David Yost and Jeremy Vore of Redleaf Designs, Swift has redesigned the legendary, if rare, 1982 Curtis Dragonfly into a new canoe, called the Dragonfly 15. I'll explain how the specs have been changed and then embed Swift's introduction video...
www.canoetripping.net
@RPATCH has a DF 15 that he has paddled many hundreds of miles in all sorts of conditions all over North America. Hopefully, he'll see this thread.
I paddled his canoe on a very twisty creek in the NJ Pine Barrens, where it performed well, but there was no wind exposure and I can't compare it to the original DF because I've not paddled one.
I paddled his canoe on a very twisty creek in the NJ Pine Barrens, where it performed well, but there was no wind exposure and I can't compare it to the original DF because I've not paddled one.
I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, but I love doing mental canoe comparisons. When it gets warmer I am going to pester a good friend of mine to let me paddle his boats and do this comparison: in my mind the only things out there that can compare to the D15 are the Redfeather RockSTAR (which I have) and the Hemlock SRT (which I love). I do not have supporting data, but I bet the Swift Dragonfly will likely carry a large load a bit more comfortably than the SRT - but the SRT is very playful, probably handling more like your OG Dragonfly than the D15. Plus of course the OG Dragonfly and the SRT share the same DNA as they are both Harold Deal boats.
The D15 and my Rockstar are similar in width (the D15 max is 30", RS is 31" - but both have the same waterline width and the same gunwale width) - that's on the wider side so if you have shorter arms the SRT is likely a better fit. But that being said, if you're looking for a load-carrying tripper that is still playful, I bet the D15 and RockSTAR are about as good as it gets on the new market these days. The D15 of course has the amazing build that Swift is known for, but Redfeather is stepping it up - after what i put my boat through this past summer, I can personally vouch for the fact that it will take a beating and still get you home.
So all this to say that you may want to consider the SRT and RockSTAR alongside the D15. You could not go wrong with any of these options. If you have a shorter wingspan, especially given your experience with the Dragonfly, the SRT may be more up your alley if you've not paddled one. All three can be had in a light-weight version, but Swift clearly has the market cornered in the amazing technology department. And their assist options are quite awesome. If you're going to be rough and beat up on the boat however, than the Redfeather RockSTAR may be a more optimal choice in this market segment...
The D15 and my Rockstar are similar in width (the D15 max is 30", RS is 31" - but both have the same waterline width and the same gunwale width) - that's on the wider side so if you have shorter arms the SRT is likely a better fit. But that being said, if you're looking for a load-carrying tripper that is still playful, I bet the D15 and RockSTAR are about as good as it gets on the new market these days. The D15 of course has the amazing build that Swift is known for, but Redfeather is stepping it up - after what i put my boat through this past summer, I can personally vouch for the fact that it will take a beating and still get you home.
So all this to say that you may want to consider the SRT and RockSTAR alongside the D15. You could not go wrong with any of these options. If you have a shorter wingspan, especially given your experience with the Dragonfly, the SRT may be more up your alley if you've not paddled one. All three can be had in a light-weight version, but Swift clearly has the market cornered in the amazing technology department. And their assist options are quite awesome. If you're going to be rough and beat up on the boat however, than the Redfeather RockSTAR may be a more optimal choice in this market segment...
If I have a complaint about the DF15, it is that mine weighs 39 lbs., but it's Expedition Kevlar with a gel coat inner bottom, which all adds up. That's the same as an SRT. As far as stability, it is not as lively as the original Dragonfly, but livelier than the Rockstar. That roughly equates to stability. I find the original Dragonfly to resemble sitting on a skinny log. The DF15 is a fatter log, so rolls slower. The Rockstar has more sticking flat to it. I can't say about the SRT. A couple of SRT paddlers have tried out my DF15 and preferred their canoes, but that may be confirmation bias or comfort with familiarity. I have paddled with SRT paddlers a bit and they seem to defy what the shear specs would say about susceptibility to wind. I have not been in bad windy conditions with my DF15. I find the DF15 to be my most comfortable canoe to paddle. It's a large canoe with finer ends than the SRT. I find it efficient enough, so much so that I have decided to use it going forward in place of my Hemlock Peregrine. I have not been in anything over class II whitewater yet. On the Big Salmon River last summer, I had but one splash over the gunwales and that was from the side. My impression so far is that it's drier than my Phoenix, but that's not really saying a lot. Obviously, I'm happy with it, but I don't know that you'd need such a large canoe if you're not loading it up with gear for a trip. It suits me either way at 6'-1" and a shade under 200#.
Thanks for the comments everyone. It does sound like testing one would be a good reason for a trip. I don't need a 'big' canoe but have always wished my Dragonfly was 6 in longer and a bit less tipsy. It took me a while to get comfortable in it at first, and now I'm getting tipsy again. I like the deeper sides and sense of bouyancy. I used to solo a Royalex Dumoine, so reaching isn't foreign to me. My old Dragonfly weighs about 39-40 lbs anyway, and I would go for a lighter build - expedition kevlar with the carbon kevlar trim and clear coat - that would make it easier to heft. Not being into whitewater, the SRT (and Raven) is a bit more typey than suits me. Again, thanks.
Just a suggestion - if you're going for a test paddle of a D15, I'd highly recommend also checking out the new Cirrus 14.6 - from what you're saying here it may tick all the points for you. It's the same length as the OG Dragonfly but it's fuller and can carry a larger load while having better primary stability. It'll be lighter than even the D15 and is surprisingly fun to paddle. I am a HUGE fan of the WildFIRE and was quite surprised at how fun the Cirrus was on my test paddle. If I hadn't already purchased a WildFIRE I'd have been mighty tempted by the Cirrus...
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If you go from a Dragonfly to a DF15 you're moving up quite a ways in volume. In my experience it can be important to match the load to the boat. A light load in a high volume boat is not a great recipe for serious wind. For me the DF15 looks way too big but the Cirrus looks very interesting. I doubt you want an SRT since the round bottom is like your DF...the boat is quick to roll (then has massive secondary stability).
I'll just mention the Keewaydin 15. It isn't as maneuverable as a true river boat but it still has good maneuverability, handles moderate to moderate+ current well, is much more stable than yiur DF and will cruise a little better plus it's just fine in serious wind. When my local river opens up and the water is cold and the current is high I'll be taking my Kee15.
I'll just mention the Keewaydin 15. It isn't as maneuverable as a true river boat but it still has good maneuverability, handles moderate to moderate+ current well, is much more stable than yiur DF and will cruise a little better plus it's just fine in serious wind. When my local river opens up and the water is cold and the current is high I'll be taking my Kee15.
Bruce Kemp, who has paddled an original Dragonfly for years, tried out my DF15 and felt it was immediately familiar, albeit larger and more stable.
@Bill Fryer, none of the primary issues you state with your current Dragonfly is going to be solved simply by being fascinated or mesmerized by a canoe with a similar name. As a reductio ad absurdum, what would you choose if all canoes were called Dragonfly?
Here are my thoughts from someone older than you with a lot of canoes.
Get a lighter weight canoe than your Dragonfly. You'll get even older.
Get a canoe with a wider waterline and flatter bottom than your Dragonfly.
You don't need a completely flat bottom canoe, although they are available, but rather one that has a shallow arch or elliptical bottom. The original Dragonfly, Swift Dragonfly 15 and Hemlock SRT all have roundish bottoms, and hence skimp on initial stability.
Get a canoe with less depth and less freeboard, especially at the stems, than your Dragonfly.
There are lots of solo canoes that meet those criteria. None is called a Dragonfly.
Here are my thoughts from someone older than you with a lot of canoes.
Get a lighter weight canoe than your Dragonfly. You'll get even older.
Get a canoe with a wider waterline and flatter bottom than your Dragonfly.
You don't need a completely flat bottom canoe, although they are available, but rather one that has a shallow arch or elliptical bottom. The original Dragonfly, Swift Dragonfly 15 and Hemlock SRT all have roundish bottoms, and hence skimp on initial stability.
Get a canoe with less depth and less freeboard, especially at the stems, than your Dragonfly.
There are lots of solo canoes that meet those criteria. None is called a Dragonfly.
Glenn, thanks for your advice. I am mostly stuck on the name because I have tried a varied selection of boats and stuck with the Dragonfly as the best balance for me that I've found. I hoped the Dragonfly 15 would have a similar balance, just more gentle with a slower leaning response. My main problem has been to stay in sync with the leaning response as I've gotten slower and stiffer. I get twitchy. Over the years I have tried out the Phoenix, Osprey, Rendevous, Prism, Merlin II, Voyageur, Shock Wave, older Mad Rivers (hated the Ladyslipper, ME, and V-bottoms), and used to have a Nomad way back (nice boat, but I wanted to turn faster). I loved my Dumoine, but it was too big and heavy to solo after my wife quit paddling. I had hopes for a Raven (or SRT) but it was too tubby - I want to get somewhere. Maybe I should also try the Cirrus. However, I do like depth when I have been out in bigger waves and want some leeway when leaning. I realize that also makes the boat more susceptible to wind. My problem with my Dragonfly has mostly been the dynamic balance with respect to wind direction. I live out west and have been on small to big rivers and reservoirs/lakes - often a fair amount of wind with long fetch. I'd get a lighter version of whatever than I now have, but it has to be rock resistant. Again, thanks to everyone for the comments.
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Or Prospector.
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I'd get a lighter version of whatever than I now have, but it has to be rock resistant.
Finding the balance between weight and strong, is always difficult.
The older we get, the weight will be more of a problem and we need to find waters that are less challenging.
Finding the balance between weight and strong, is always difficult.
The older we get, the weight will be more of a problem and we need to find waters that are less challenging.
How rock resistant does it need to be? Are we talking scraping over the occasional rock or banging off rocks while running CII and CIII?
I think people tend to either under estimate the durability of lighter weight layups or over estimate the waters they normally paddle. I've had plenty of rock encounters with nothing but superficial scratches on lightweight hulls. Unless I was regularly running CII and up I would be comfortable in most any lightweight layup for day trips and overnighters up to a week.
Alan
Well, not running Cll+ or bouncing off of rocks at speed. I have often gone to places where the shore is rocks and getting in and out is a little rough, especially with wind and waves. My experience with composites is mostly with my Dragonfly which has the original Curtis kevlar expedition layup, which has stood up well - so I would want the equivalent or so. It is stiff and doesn't flex much at all, and has always slid off rocks. I can accept scratches and chips, but would hate cracks. My experience with modern layups is very limited. I had a friend put a significant surface crack in his new SRT about 20 years ago from overcinching the tie down straps. I don't think my old Dragonfly would do that. Advice is welcome.
I'm surprised to hear about the SRT damage, unless they were using ratchet straps (which is a huge no-no). That being said - I'm learning that it's better to get a lighter layup and repair any potential damage as opposed to default to the heavier layup. I mean, if you know you're going to do expedition travel on big rivers I totally get it, but even for periodic use in rocky environments I still think you're better off getting the lighter layup for the simple reason that you're FAR more likely to use a light boat than a heavier boat.
The easier it is to get that thing on and off the car, then more it will be used!
I really do think you'll like that Cirrus 14.6, but if you're going to travel somewhere to try Swift canoes anyway, it's worth it to paddle several options. The best-selling Swift solo is the Prospector 14, and this new P15 solo they have coming out soon will be similarly alluring. Nothing can be hurt by trying them if you can find a place near you to demo. The two Prospectors will both be deeper than the Cirrus if I am not mistaken, although both will be a bit less playful (albeit with more primary stability and a greater load capacity). The real beauty of both the Cirrus and P14 is that in Kevlar Fusion they'll weigh in the upper 20s or low 30s - which to me sounds like a boat that gets paddled frequently!
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"I had hoped the Dragonfly 15 would have a similar balance, just more gentle with a slower leaning response..."
I think you're on the right track. I have Expedition Kevlar, but I had a Swift in Kevlar Fusion that I used quite a bit and I think it is plenty strong enough. I took it far with no appreciable damage and it would be lighter. Jeremy Vore has a Dragonfly 15 in Expedition Kevlar with wood gunwales that weighs 36 lbs. Drop a few pounds off of that for carbon gunwales and the lighter layup and you're pretty much there.
I'd reccomend calling Bill Swift and getting his input. He's always willing to do a phone consultation and you could set up a test paddle. He may know of someone close to you that has one to try.
I think you're on the right track. I have Expedition Kevlar, but I had a Swift in Kevlar Fusion that I used quite a bit and I think it is plenty strong enough. I took it far with no appreciable damage and it would be lighter. Jeremy Vore has a Dragonfly 15 in Expedition Kevlar with wood gunwales that weighs 36 lbs. Drop a few pounds off of that for carbon gunwales and the lighter layup and you're pretty much there.
I'd reccomend calling Bill Swift and getting his input. He's always willing to do a phone consultation and you could set up a test paddle. He may know of someone close to you that has one to try.
Bill, you've tried a lot more canoes that I thought when you initially said you've had the Dragonfly since 1988.
Even though I personally don't recall paddling a Curtis Dragonfly but have paddled the DF 15, there can be no doubt that the DF 15 is more stable. It is 2" wider at the waterline and 1.5" wider at maximum beam. The original Dragonfly was designed as a whitewater racing canoe for Harold Deal in the combined class of slalom + downriver. The DF 15 has been detuned, lengthened, widened, and increased in volume to be a more comfortable and capacious river tripping canoe.
But it still has a roundish bottom, which doesn't bother me but may not be a sufficient increase in stability for you. The only way know is to water test, which is difficult from Colorado.
Yes, that is a dilemma when paddling big, windy lakes and rivers: Depth increases windage but gives a feeling of security in waves. I assume you must paddle mainly in lakes if you are not running whitewater in the Rockies.
But note that the DF 15 is significantly deeper than the original Dragonfly at the ends. The bow height is now 21" vs. 17" and the stern height is now 18.5" vs. 15.5". The center depth is unchanged at 14". Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the DF 15 will be noticeably more affected by wind than the original DF.
The DF 15 has asymmetrical rocker, which often makes a canoe funkier in winds than symmetrical rocker. The original DF has symmetrical rocker.
For paddling on lakes in wind, you may like a change from a highly rockered, maneuverable canoe designed for whitewater, and instead try a harder tracking lake canoe with only modest rocker. My Swift Keewaydin 15 solo canoe, at 28 lbs. and with modest rocker, cruises nicely on lakes and is more wind balanced than my SRT, Wildfire, Caper, BJX, Bob Special, ME or Winisk.
I agree with Alan Gage that modern composite layups are plenty rock resistant for recreational flat water paddling and tripping. All of my seven composite non-whitewater canoes—which are various combos of S glass, Kevlar, carbon, and Innegra—have nothing more than a few bottom scratches, some after more than 40 years. My 1999 Hemlock SRT is built like a tank, S glass plus Kevlar, a whitewater layup really, which could not be damaged by any reasonable amount of tie down force.
Even though I personally don't recall paddling a Curtis Dragonfly but have paddled the DF 15, there can be no doubt that the DF 15 is more stable. It is 2" wider at the waterline and 1.5" wider at maximum beam. The original Dragonfly was designed as a whitewater racing canoe for Harold Deal in the combined class of slalom + downriver. The DF 15 has been detuned, lengthened, widened, and increased in volume to be a more comfortable and capacious river tripping canoe.
But it still has a roundish bottom, which doesn't bother me but may not be a sufficient increase in stability for you. The only way know is to water test, which is difficult from Colorado.
Yes, that is a dilemma when paddling big, windy lakes and rivers: Depth increases windage but gives a feeling of security in waves. I assume you must paddle mainly in lakes if you are not running whitewater in the Rockies.
But note that the DF 15 is significantly deeper than the original Dragonfly at the ends. The bow height is now 21" vs. 17" and the stern height is now 18.5" vs. 15.5". The center depth is unchanged at 14". Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the DF 15 will be noticeably more affected by wind than the original DF.
The DF 15 has asymmetrical rocker, which often makes a canoe funkier in winds than symmetrical rocker. The original DF has symmetrical rocker.
For paddling on lakes in wind, you may like a change from a highly rockered, maneuverable canoe designed for whitewater, and instead try a harder tracking lake canoe with only modest rocker. My Swift Keewaydin 15 solo canoe, at 28 lbs. and with modest rocker, cruises nicely on lakes and is more wind balanced than my SRT, Wildfire, Caper, BJX, Bob Special, ME or Winisk.
I agree with Alan Gage that modern composite layups are plenty rock resistant for recreational flat water paddling and tripping. All of my seven composite non-whitewater canoes—which are various combos of S glass, Kevlar, carbon, and Innegra—have nothing more than a few bottom scratches, some after more than 40 years. My 1999 Hemlock SRT is built like a tank, S glass plus Kevlar, a whitewater layup really, which could not be damaged by any reasonable amount of tie down force.
Glenn, I have found the discussion very useful in reviewing the choices I need to make and what canoes I should be considering. I think the RPATCH has actually addressed my thoughts best based on his experience with both the original Dragonfly and the Dragonfly 15. He has described the 15 the way I was hoping, so it is still my primary focus. I will surely try others that look interesting - I love to try out new canoes (I've actually paddled a few more than I listed, but was mentioning those because they represented a range of characteristics I have reacted to). Round bottom is my preference, just a slower roll period, more like my Dumoine was. Lighter Yes, but the expedition Kevlar Lite with epoxy resin and carbon kevlar trim is probably the sweet spot for me. I have no idea how my friend cracked his SRT (expedition kevlar layup) on the roof racks, but it sure caught my attention. The only damage I've had to repair on my Dragonfly was a big chip out of the stem where it hit the driveway concrete when the wind picked it off the sawhorses as I was cleaning it one spring. As for wind, I'll opt for the feeling of safety and figure that slower is OK as long as I can point the direction I want. The Dragonfly will not point downwind in a blow no matter what I've tried. And I still want to turn well as I've been in big and small rivers (very moderate whitewater) as well as lakes and reservoirs, and need to practice what I learned in Freestyle class (thanks to Karen Knight). I've got an inquiry in to Swift about a Dragonfly 15, and maybe we can discuss again after I check it out in person. Thanks.
Bill, it sounds as if you are being thorough in considering your decision. The DF 15 is a creative hull that could be a top candidate for a "do everything" canoe, as I consider my SRT to be. That is, if I could take only one canoe for unknown waters, it would be my SRT.
Harold Deal, for whom the original Dragonfly was designed, and who designed the SRT, personally told me that the SRT is more stable than the original Dragonfly. As an SRT owner for 17 years and having paddled the DF 15 four months ago on twisty waters, I can vouch that the DF 15 has more initial stability than the SRT. Ergo, there can be no doubt the DF 15 is more stable than the original DF.
Just curious, what does it do? Rockered canoes will blow sideways in stiff winds. I was once out on a very windy lake in Maine in my Millbrook ME and I could not control it at all. All it did was blow sideways downwind while I rode a brace. Fortunately, downwind was the direction I was headed.
Let us know how your quest progresses. The info we learn and post here helps future open canoe searchers and researchers. That's a primary purpose of this site.
Harold Deal, for whom the original Dragonfly was designed, and who designed the SRT, personally told me that the SRT is more stable than the original Dragonfly. As an SRT owner for 17 years and having paddled the DF 15 four months ago on twisty waters, I can vouch that the DF 15 has more initial stability than the SRT. Ergo, there can be no doubt the DF 15 is more stable than the original DF.
Just curious, what does it do? Rockered canoes will blow sideways in stiff winds. I was once out on a very windy lake in Maine in my Millbrook ME and I could not control it at all. All it did was blow sideways downwind while I rode a brace. Fortunately, downwind was the direction I was headed.
Let us know how your quest progresses. The info we learn and post here helps future open canoe searchers and researchers. That's a primary purpose of this site.
