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The Dark Side of CPR
- Thread starter Glenn MacGrady
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That is why it is recommended one have a living will, and if one has a terminal illness, a Do Not Resuscitate order.
When I was involved with the volunteer fire department, we learned of the very low success rates of CPR.
The exceptions are children, drownings and hypothermia. In those situations, success rates are higher.
When I was involved with the volunteer fire department, we learned of the very low success rates of CPR.
The exceptions are children, drownings and hypothermia. In those situations, success rates are higher.
Interesting - makes sense. What are you quoting from there Glenn?
That's discouraging.
I'm waiting for amazon to offer a $200 AED.
Yes, every experienced CPR instructor I have had tells of the generally poor overall success rate, with the above exceptions. One of my civlian instructors, employed as a combat medic contract instructor with the army, tells personal stories of truly miraculous battlefield life saving successes.
Done corectly on adult, expect broken ribs, almost certainly with the elderly, which could lead to internal damage complications. But what is one to do when arriving at a tragic scene? If current and having had recent training, a care giver is obligated to do something or suffer the regret of doing nothing and standing by to otherwise witness certain death occur.
AEDs have made a significant impact on survival rates from witnessed cardiopulmonary arrests due to non-perfusing ventricular tachycardias. But the AED has to be immediately available and immediately applied although a few minutes of CPR performed by another while someone fetches the device can result in the survival of a relatively young and otherwise healthy individual.
I was a paid paramedic for thirty years. Of course it was mostly hopeless because the ACLS protocol had to be implemented within 8min of cessation of breathing and pulse and our response times were almost always longer due to the geographical area. We were paid on station. Almost always our presenting rhythm was flatline asystole.. there is nothing to shock.. Monitored collapse as when an patient was in the ambulance and had been loaded alive had better outcomes.
AED s help but are not a tool to be used by themselves.. The timely arrival of follow up drugs is essential
I have done CPR on actual humans some 700 times. Broken ribs were the norm especially in the elderly. I can remember about 10 that walked out of the hospital and could function as humans again.. About another 10 percent regained heart function but were so brain damaged from hypoxia that they were fed and watered in ICU until they passed without ever regaining consciousness.
cold water was a help. Two of the survivors were kids who drowned in cold water. They had adults with them who did not survive.
One of the moments I remember best was after teaching a civilian CPR class the students left and found an unconscious driver in the parking lot.. They though it was a test. They pulled the guy out and called 911 and did CPR. He lived ( the station was about a mile away).. I was upstairs cleaning and stowing Annies!
AED s help but are not a tool to be used by themselves.. The timely arrival of follow up drugs is essential
I have done CPR on actual humans some 700 times. Broken ribs were the norm especially in the elderly. I can remember about 10 that walked out of the hospital and could function as humans again.. About another 10 percent regained heart function but were so brain damaged from hypoxia that they were fed and watered in ICU until they passed without ever regaining consciousness.
cold water was a help. Two of the survivors were kids who drowned in cold water. They had adults with them who did not survive.
One of the moments I remember best was after teaching a civilian CPR class the students left and found an unconscious driver in the parking lot.. They though it was a test. They pulled the guy out and called 911 and did CPR. He lived ( the station was about a mile away).. I was upstairs cleaning and stowing Annies!
How does one communicate the existence of a DNR outside of a hospital setting.
I was wondering if a tattoo on my chest would work.
It is meaningless.. There is no way to check the veracity of such an order outside controlled settings..We in the field proceed according to protocol and the hospital may have been able to check during transport.. We simply do not have the time.. Two or three people is what you get on a field code..Not a team.
In some states we are allowed to presume death.
Dealing with death
Designating specific roles and other tips to make the hardest part of the job a bit easier
www.ems1.com
I wonder about DNRs as a good samaritan. If I watched a stranger collapse out in the woods, went to do CPR, and found a DNR bracelet (or chest tattoo) or something....that's certainly not legally binding, but I think I'd heed their supposed wishes. Likewise if a companion tells me they have a DNR. Sure, foul play is always a possibility but a legit DNR seems more likely?
I know my aunt had a DNR on her fridge at home, which I believe was legally binding, though outside of a hospital.
I know my aunt had a DNR on her fridge at home, which I believe was legally binding, though outside of a hospital.
and you are sure the tag wasn't a plant to cover a crime? Good Samaritans can be sued ( you can be sued for anything) but conviction for assault won't happen.
Its best to be familiar with State Laws.. I can only vouch for Maine and Connecticut.
DNR's usually have strict criteria.. Must be complete collapse ie no heart activity..You can't assume that in the field.EKG machines used People that have DNR's often do not have DNI ( do not intubate..respiratory failure).So a drowning person could have a DNR but not a DNI and rescue would therefore be called for in any situation.
Complicated issue....better to just get deeper in the back country and avoid all the people.
If I had DNR tattooed on my chest, like Billconner mentioned, I would be afraid the person that happens along to help would think I belong to the Department of Natural Resources and would try harder to save my life. Just a stupid thought I had. I just woke up. Need coffee.
Roy
Roy
The NPR article linked in the OP, which I've just re-quoted in this message above. Click it.
Ah ha, didn't catch that the title was an active link... duh. Thanks!
So the question stands - given the above discussion: you see a stranger collapse in the woods while paddling as a private citizen on your own time (i.e. you're not a guide, SAR, or otherwise supposed to be rescuing people as part of an official capacity). You're CPR trained, no AED, EMS response is say...20-30min away. Do you do CPR? What outcome are you aiming for when you do?
Does your answer change if EMS will definitely take longer, say, more than an hour?
Does your answer change if EMS will definitely take longer, say, more than an hour?
Still , the articke does not address death from solely hypoxia.
We are more apt to find people who have hearts that are in great shape but with no oxygen as in drowning WILL stop.
For petes sake do sone CPR in the field
Giving those rescue breaths and clearing the airway may all that is needed.
Believe me when they do wake you will know" WTF ARE YOU DOING?"
They will need medevac but so what
Statistics are meaningless on a canoe trip even if the situation looks hopeless
We are more apt to find people who have hearts that are in great shape but with no oxygen as in drowning WILL stop.
For petes sake do sone CPR in the field
Giving those rescue breaths and clearing the airway may all that is needed.
Believe me when they do wake you will know" WTF ARE YOU DOING?"
They will need medevac but so what
Statistics are meaningless on a canoe trip even if the situation looks hopeless
I guess I'm envisioning a collapse due to medical condition, where one suspects heart attack but doesn't know the cause, as opposed to near drownings, with an obvious cause. But heat stroke and hypothermia are perhaps as likely on a canoe trip as the other two, and the cause may or may not be obvious there.