Spray skirt attachments for Northstar Trillum canoe

[CathyF]

I can sew a sprayskirt for this canoe but I need directions for how to install attachments for the sprayskirt to my canoe .https://northstarcanoes.com/canoe/trillium/ What kind of anchoring pieces - d-rings, holes in the gunnels, etc. And I’m not particularly interested in snaps but could be convinced. I think I’d rather have it laced. Or, is there someone who would be interested in actually installing attachments? I don’t have real experience with drills, etc.“Illiterate” completely when it comes to working with building tools. Thanks in advance for taking a chance on answering this question. Oh, and having the ability to rope in/secure a float bag would be helpful...

 

[Guest]

I can sew a sprayskirt for this canoe but I need directions for how to install attachments for the sprayskirt to my canoe . What kind of anchoring pieces - d-rings, holes in the gunnels, etc. And I’m not particularly interested in snaps but could be convinced. I think I’d rather have it laced.

If you are set on staying away from snaps I’d start by having a look at Northwater Spray Decks and how they are installed/attached, and also at the various design options.

https://northwater.com/products/canoe-spray-deck

Click on “Documents & Media” for some installation information and videos.

The “Installation Guide” shows the needed materials. Northwater sells just the Loop Patches

https://northwater.com/collections/r...nyl-loop-patch

Whichever attachment system you choose, snaps or loops, you will be drilling a bunch of holes in the hull.

 

[yellowcanoe]

The spray skirt on my Placid Boatworks RapidFire is secured to the boat by industrial velcro. It works fine and no drilling of anything required. The only downside is that I would not use the Velcro system for heavy whitewater as dumping waves might implode it. If you have a Trillium I doubt whitewater is in your future.
I have been on Lake Superior with the spray skirt but when the waves get to two feet and breaking I am off the water. Occasional waves are fine.

Dirt and Velcro dont mix so I try to brush the Velcro from time to time.

 

[Patrick Corry]

At 1:45 in this video, the Baird brothers install a Northwater spray deck.

https://youtu.be/zXYW65qV0ks

Airbag tie down straps too.

 

[CathyF]

Patrick Corry, I am just looking at the Northwater site and was wondering about the installation. Thanks!

 

[CathyF]

Thanks Mike & yellowcanoe. I'm intrigued with the Northwater site. I may have to rethink sewing my own spray skirt

 

[DaveO]

You wrote: "having the ability to rope in/secure a float bag would be helpful" Float bags are good insurance even on flatwater, in my opinion, but others are less enthusiastic about it. I guess manufacturers do not make the float bag attachment points standard equipment because they want to keep the stated/advertised weight down. This leaves us paddlers having to DYI it. Lots of opinions on how best to do it, and it depends somewhat on the layup of the hull. Drills are pretty easy but I expect you don't want to go learning on an expensive composite canoe. Snaps require lots of drilling, obviously. Cooke Custom does a terrific job if you decide to go the snaps route for the skirt. Best of luck with it.

 

[Guest]

Thoughts on spray covers (could run long)

We have had spray covers on a dozen different canoes over the past 30 years, including DIY and manufactured covers attached in various fashions; Velcro, Northwater-ish hooks and loops, CCS style snap rivets and even IQ System covers.

The IQ system only worked* on canoes with IQ gunwales, and honestly were a PITA to put on boltrope-slid-in-channel (they slid off easy enough). But the IQ tandem belly cover was nice.

P1011562 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Combined with IQ bow and stern spray shields those IQ covers occluded most of the open hull.

*Not actually “only”; I retrofitted some IQ bow/stern “spray shields” for non-IQ canoes, using toggles under the existing through-hull lacing and toggles in lieu of hooks.

P2260059 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Inelegant, but easily attached and easily adjustable, so I use the same bow and stern covers on a couple different canoes.

The Velcro was the easiest to DIY, and the easiest to put on and take off. The Velcro itself was an issue; like YC I had to brush it clean of accumulated debris and it eventually lost a lot of grip.

The biggest complication was that the canoe was stored outside, and the loop side of the Velcro attached to the hull became crud encrusted in storage, even with occasional cleaning. I did replace the Velcro on the hull, but by then the hook portion sewn to the cover was getting weak.

I wouldn’t do Velcro again, but with a canoe stored inside YMMV.

We have never had a Northwater cover, but have DIYed one in similar fashion. A couple of our canoes have through-hull lacing spaced in-out every 6” just below the outwales. Instead of drilling new holes 5 ½” below the gunwale, near the waterline a la Northwater, and having to glue on a patch at every loop hole, I used that existing float bag cage line.

That was satisfactory for shedding rain and splash, less so for plunging through waves or haystacks, where the water squirted up under the too-high-affixed covers. On the plus side, like Northwater’s design, those covers could be adjusted to accommodate above-gunwale loads.

I don’t see much of that big wave action, and already had line lacing for float bags or gear tie downs, so the trade off was worth it. I never much liked the idea of all those vinyl pad loop patches inside the hull, nor of drilling yet more holes to install bag or gear tie down points.

We have/had four canoes with snap rivets. Two with custom (open “cockpit”) Cooke Custom Sewing covers

IMG019 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Those CCS snap riveted partial covers are my favorites. I am not a fan of wearing a tunnel skirt, prefer the ease of entry/egress with an open cockpit and notice that in most actual use photos of full-skirt covers the paddlers had the covers rolled back to open-cockpit access.

With that “open cockpit” design I had CCS make flat, no-tunnel “storage covers” for in-camp use.

P2160542 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Those center storage covers have proven to be a boon for in-camp storage of paddling gear. I don’t need to remove the covers, flip the canoe over and find a dry place to store paddling gear; I can just snap the center cover in place and leave all of the paddling stuff ready to go inside the hull.

P2160540 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Between paddles, pole, back band, seat pad, PFD and etc that is a lot of paddling gear I would otherwise want to haul up to camp and store under the tarp or inside a vestibule. I can simply leave everything protected and ready to go inside the canoe. As long as I cock the hull over on a sideways slant even an overnight deluge drains off, leaving the contents dry.

PA060100 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

(It poured buckets the night before that photo, and I awoke in the wee hours to find a bathtub’s worth of water sagging a poorly erected tarp. Everything inside the canoe was still dry, which made for an easy morning’s day paddle)

We had a snap riveted full sized with-tunnels cover retrofitted on one tandem.

P7140018 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That is actually a heavy duty vinyl impregnated (zero stretch) Coleman Marine cover that, serendipity, happened to fit our Cronje perfectly; a full cover, with skirt tunnels, it had a peculiar removable bow section, which was might handy at times.

P7140022 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

The last cover I DIY’ed was snap-riveted, largely copying the custom designed partials from CSS. Not nearly as nice as a CCS spray, but largely functional. It helped that I already had a pop rivet tool with a nose made for installing snap rivet studs, and had already installed a couple Cooke covers, so I at least had the concept and initial installation down.

DIY-ing that one I learned a few things. Instead of spacing the snap rivets every 8” as on a CCS cover I spaced them every 12”. OK, that spacing was mostly so that the snaps didn’t interfere with already existing outfitting, and because I am lazy and cheap. But the cover seems plenty sturdy and I have 1/3 fewer snaps to deal with; I think it would hold with an imploding wave, but I don’t do that stuff, so no need.

With a snap riveted cover it is necessary to back up the rivet inside the hull with a washer. Or something else, CCS has small (1/4”) stainless steel mini D-rings that can serve that washer purpose and are perfect for a float bag lacing cage. The little doohickies here on the bottom left.

P4030002 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Whether a Northwater, Cooke Custom Sewing or DIY’ed cover do not overlook a paddle pocket and couple shaft restraints, and, if a full cover, some attachment for a map case. And some Velcro lashings to hold painter lines.

P2160520 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

With some (most) spray cover designs the carry handles bow and stern will be inaccessible, and there isn’t a lot of exposed gunwale to grab. Painter line loops become a grab necessity, but naked line isn’t especially hand-friendly; I put a section of garden hose or Tygon tubing toggle on the painter loop for more hand-friendly grasping.

P2160522 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Last thing (er, ok, maybe not); materials. Coated Nylon sags a bit when wet, and shrink a bit when dry. Poly materials don’t. There are pluses and minuses to either material (snap riveted poly better fit perfectly on initial installation or you will never get them attached). Putting a snap rivet nylon cover on in low humidity, with the material shrunken tight, is an exercise in thumb aching futility and frustration.

The nylon solution in low humidity is to simply fill the spray cover stuff bag with river water, set it aside, pack your gear in the canoe and then put it on. The nylon will have relaxed enough to go on easily; if it is rainy out it’s already as sagged as it will get, if it is dry out the cover will soon become drum-skin tight.

Yadda, yadda, freaking yadda. I love the advantages of spray cover. Hope that gave you enough to think about.

Whether you buy a Northwater or CCS cover or DIY your own please keep us posted. Take some photos.

 

[CathyF]

Oh my, Mike Crea! Thank you for sharing. I’ll keep ya posted.

 

[jefffski]

Had a CCS snap cover. Hated it. First, it was hard to put on, especially when dry. As we live on the west coast and paddle in the ocean, we often load the canoe in the water, because at low tide, it's impossible to slide a canoe into the water as beaches tend to be very rocky. Snapping the cover on with the canoe in the water took too long and was quite difficult in even mild choppy water.

The second issue was tearing the fabric. OK, it was a little old (we bought the canoe w/ cover second hand) and probably UV weakened. So, we tore it as we tried to unsnap it. And we had to unsnap it whenever we wanted into the canoe for gear, food, etc.

Third, some of the snaps failed as we unsnapped it.

Short story: We got a Northwater. Measuring, drilling, prepping and gluing on patches took most of a day (get two bottles of the glue). Otherwise it was not a difficult process, just tedious. Now, we love it, but it's not waterproof, as some have mentioned. It also has a zippered middle section, which makes loading and unloading a breeze. Ten minutes or less to lace it on. Once it's on, it stays on for a whole trip. On warm days, we unlace it to just behind the bow seat, and then roll the skirt back. This leaves the bow completely open, but the skirt is in place for the rest of the canoe. The skirt adds weight, but that's only an issue for carrying the canoe down to the water. After each trip, we rinse it with fresh water and let it dry before rolling it up to store it.

 

[CathyF]

All the things you mentioned that went wrong I had imagined. And not fixable in the field. Lacing seems the only good solution when compared to snaps and Velcro.

 

[yellowcanoe]

The velcro I have had since 2006. Not stored outside though.. The Northwater skirts are best for true wilderness tripping like NWT or Yukon where a failure is not an option. Even NW uses some velcro.

You will have to drill holes in the hull https://northwater.com/products/canoe-spray-deck

 

[Guest]

All the things you mentioned that went wrong I had imagined. And not fixable in the field. Lacing seems the only good solution when compared to snaps and Velcro.

Some paddlers detest snaps, some don’t have a problem. I am in the latter category, perhaps because I always wet it down in dry weather for easy application.

Plus I appreciated Dan Cooke’s willingness to work with me for my spray cover wants, and design partials for my peculiar open cockpit desires. I would never have conceived that raised drainage baffle lip on my own, but have incorporated it into a DIY cover, and my bother-in-law copied that drainage baffle on open center solo covers he sewed for his Freedom Solo.

I have yet to have a snap problem in the field. I did pop a corroded brass stud off a decked canoe in the shop; that boat had seen a yearsof salt water action, and it was probably my fault for not dampening the nylon cover, or more thoroughly rinsing the hull after tidal trips. Popped a new stud in place, 30 seconds in the shop.

Dan made me a center storage cover after some years of using one set of partials. When I installed that center cover years later the color fade (red may be the easiest faded color, think old bumper stickers and such) was noticeable.

P3090604 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

I now hit my covers with fabric 303 every year or two, which has halted the UV fade.

If I did damage a snap rivet on a trip I would be comfortable just skipping that one; 8” space vs 12” spacing seemed to make little difference, and I think the covers would stay firmly affixed with one snap missing.

I recall a tale from a CCS spray cover user, relating how he had his cover on the canoe in the yard when his sizeable Newfoundland decided to trampoline on top. No failure, good enough implosion resistance for me.

To be clear, I have never used a manufactured Northwater cover, and can see some advantages in accommodating above-gunwale gear loads. An opportunity to try both cover systems head-to-head would make for an interesting compare & contrast.

Jeffski, wanna get rid of that hated CCS cover if you still have it? What canoe did it fit? I may be able to patch/fix and retrofit it, and might make you an offer.

 

[CathyF]

Yellowcanoe - good point about how rugged the Northwater is. I would most likely not be on a true wilderness trip with my Northstar solo. I feel Velcro is better than snaps.

 

[CathyF]

Mike Crea, I’ve heard nothing but praise about Dan Cooke and CCS. I know two paddlers that have DIY spray skirts based on his designs and copied from a book by Cliff Jacobson. The snaps are tricky and I plan to check if they know about wetting the nylon before snapping. I have a Pakboat and it has a lace on sprayskirt. I’ve actually never had to use it but I like the fact that it laces for reasons mentioned earlier. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments!

 

[Mason]

I have a Pakboat and it has a lace on sprayskirt. I’ve actually never had to use it but I like the fact that it laces for reasons mentioned earlier. Thanks again for your thoughtful comments!

A couple of years ago we took two Pakboats on a 6 week trip in northern Canada. Ours had the PakBoat lace on spray skirt, the other had a CCS. While the lace on worked, it was heavier, bulkier, slower to manage, and a lot cheaper than the CCS. Both boats have been used extensively on similar trips, without any failures. Having dealt with the lace on, and watching the others with the snap on, my next cover will be a snap on, either a CCS or a homemade on built like the CCS (which is very similar to Cliff Jacobson's design).

 

[jefffski]

Jeffski, wanna get rid of that hated CCS cover if you still have it? What canoe did it fit? I may be able to patch/fix and retrofit it, and might make you an offer.

I'll have to check. Just went through a move and we may have tossed it. I'll let you know. It's very UV damaged, btw (or it was).

 

[DaveO]

I installed a CCS snap-on-cover roughly twenty years ago, on a Prism flex-core. I installed it in the dead of winter with very low relative humidity, and consequently, there were only one or two spots that I sometimes had to splash, to get it on.

I especially liked having the front cover to keep the sit and switch splash out. I never really used the center tunnel skirt part, mostly just rolled it up. I put it on if I was expecting wind, as the prism particularly could get squirrelly in quartering following waves. Also good for rain and chill. Frankly, I did not use it all that much, but I liked having it on trips as an insurance policy.

I sold it when I got a deal on the magic. I would have kept it if it had been the ultra light layup. I always meant to put a CCS snap cover on the magic, and still plan to do it soon - hahahaha in my spare time.

I hope the prism is still having adventures. I had loads of fun in that boat.

 

[CathyF]

DaveO, I don’t like the sit and switch splash, so a front cover would be super. I bet I wouldn’t use the center tunnel skirt part often but I rather get a a skirt now rather than wait a few years, uncomfortable and dealing with drip, waves and wind, and wishing I had it.

 

[Guest]

I installed a CCS snap-on-cover roughly twenty years ago, on a Prism flex-core.

I especially liked having the front cover to keep the sit and switch splash out.

I use just the front cover sometimes, especially on downriver day trips, in equal parts for (gasp!) double blade drips, splash and spray and because I like having the bow paddle pocket for the spare paddle and furled sail.

On gear loaded trips I would rather have both. Of course I have snapped on just the front cover and soon enough wished I had installed both pieces.

I foolishly put on only the bow portion of the spray covers. The breeze was blowing across the lake on a beam reach, and even though the stern gear load was below the sheerline the wind noticeably caught that uncovered end, wanting to point my bow into the wind. It was but a sideways breeze, and proof that covers help in any wind.

That was sheer laziness and haste; the launch was open, shallow and sandy. And touch of stupidity too; it wasn’t the first time I have learned that lesson. I believe covers help, especially in crosswinds.

And I have put on neither of the covers at camp launches that were so steep/difficult that it was hard enough just to haphazardly dump gear in the boat and get on the water; in those instances I look for some easier landing spot further along, beach the canoe, stage the gear properly and then put the covers on.

I never really used the center tunnel skirt part, mostly just rolled it up.

I had noticed that typical rolled-up use with spray cover users, and it’s why I asked Dan Cooke to make me partial covers with an always open center cockpit. I’m not comfortable in a tunnel skirt; not for fear of entrapment, just because it is more frou-frou to deal with for the 90+% of the time I’m not using it. If it is raining more than half of the canoe is covered, and I’m wearing raingear anyway, usually not a lot of bilge water to bail, or in usual fact, sponge.

On the open cockpit downside I ran a series of steep haystacks on a lightly loaded bday trip with bow and stern covers attached. The bow submarined on the first wave (Wenonah Wilderness) and the haystack poured across the bow cover, hit the raised drainage baffle and deposited itself first on my face and chest, before partially filling the bilge.

The second and third haystacks with considerable water taken aboard were even less fun. That was a sub-freezing New Year’s Day trip, and fortunately the take out was 100 yards downstream at a friend’s property, with a toasty bonfire awaiting our arrival.

Less fortunately I did not take the covers off before I joined the fireside. I was warm and dy before I wandered off, but when I went to pack up the painter lines were icy chunks of coiled rope, and the covers were frozen stiff, large red pizza slices with snaps, and sure as heck weren’t going back in the stuff bag. Into the car the pizza slices went, I had to put the hatchback rear seat down so they would stiff fit. They thawed and dripped on the ride home

Couple of lessons learned that day.

Thinking on DIY covers, if I hadn’t already learn how-to by installing a couple of CCS covers (Dan’s instructions are dang near idiot-proof), and didn’t already have a snap setting anvil & flaring tool, and modified pop rivet nose for snap studs for DIY's, I think a loop & lash system like Northwater’s would be easier to DIY, or at least more forgiving of design or installation mistakes.

If no whitewater or large wave action was anticipated, ie just a cover for rain and splash and paddle blade drips, using through-hull floatbag style lacing line, with holes drilled an inch or so lower on the hull sides than usual (but still well above waterline), might be the easiest two birds with one stone solution.

At an above-waterline position, a couple inches down from the bottom of the outwale, the rope through the hull holes would occlude most splash and small wave seepage.

If I DIY another cover I may give that a try again with lower lacing lines.

Higher lashings on a canoe tumblehome might alleviate a little bit of a perhaps unfounded but still nagging concern with Northwater style attachments; I am at times not the most attentive paddler, and on some wider rivers choose to ride the fastwater bubble line on the outside of turns. Sometimes getting a bit closer to the bank than I intended. Eh, sometimes even on smaller rivers, where I occasionally say “Oh crap!” and try to squeak away still upright.

I could see oopsie getting too close and hooking a \/ lashing on some errant branch, snag or rock. Same with the canoe hanging up a capsize; those lashings would be a challenge in a strainer pile, or even dragging over a beaver dam.

At least with snap rivet covers there is less stuff exposed on the side to get hung up.