Solo canoe for heavy seas/broaching conditions.

[Gerald]

Any opinions? Thanks.

G.

 

[memaquay]

Swift Raven, don't know about the royalex version, but my stripper is big and very sea worthy.

 

[Guest]

In those conditions I would prefer a decked canoe every time. Kruger Sea Wind, Clipper Sea-1, Mad River Monarch, Sawyer Loon, Savage River Falcon, etc. Monarchs and Loons are not unicorns used, but still pricey; the others are far beyond my wallet.

Or one of the kit or stripper-plans versions for build your own.

 

[Robin]

I had a Cooke canoe cover on my Argosy (don't you have an Argosy now)) and I found it to be the answer to those big nasty windblown lakes in La Verendrye.

Or get a wood canvas Chum, they are pretty seaworthy.

 

[Gerald]

Thanks for the answers so far. Looking for an open canoe and under 40 lbs for portaging.

G.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the answers so far. Looking for an open canoe and under 40 lbs for portaging.

For an open canoe in “heavy seas” I agree about using spray covers.

That said, I have been out in a decked canoe in conditions that would have seen me sphincter-puckered and heading for shore ASAP in any of our spray covered open canoes. On the other hand I would not want to portage any of our decked canoes very far.

That open canoe criteria at least saves $. At 40 lbs in a decked canoe you would limited to a Savage River Falcon; starting at 5K and up.

http://www.savageriver.com/kayaks/falcon

Or, maybe, provided you small framed, light gear packed and don’t want an OEM rudder, a used Rob Roy design; the Bell Canoe carbon Rob Roys were (sub?) 30 lbs, and even the kevlar layups weighed only 33 – 44 lbs.

I have never paddled, or even seen, a Savage Falcon, and the 15’ Rob Roy is too small for my bulk and typical gear load. Clipper built a 15’ 9” version of the Sea-1 for some years, the Seaclipse; never paddled or seen one of those in person either, and they were 48 lbs.

Fabric decks, Northwater, Cooke Custom Sewing or cunningly DIY’ed, on a sea kindly canoe would be a lot less expensive as a possible solution.

No idea how well the Wenonah Argosy fits the “sea kindly” bill in heavy seas/broaching conditions.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Of the boats I have had several have gone on large lakes. Like Lake Superior and the famously huge open lakes of the Everglades that can stop the slow boats dead with their winds.

Look at hull shape. Boats like the Northstar Northwind solo has a hull cross section that has the widest part of the hull up toward the gunwales https://northstarcanoes.com/canoe/northwind/?option=solo It sheds broaching waves very well and that shouldered tumblehome lends the most stability in waves. Compare the hull shape to that of the Wenonah Argosy.. In broadside seas I found that boat terrifying as waves would ride right up over the side and push it down. The hull has its widest point very near the bottom https://www.wenonah.com/Canoes.aspx?id=126
I thought I would die paddling it on the Allegheny river when the lock opened and the reflecting waves off the bulwarks were several feet tall. Worse I was a safety boater and thought this is going to look bad.

A stern quartering wind is the most challenging to avoid broaching and I find boats that have less rocker in rear than in the bow are more resistant to yawing off course. The WIldfire is very stable in wind from the bow and from the side but the back ends wants to slew around with a tail wind. It has 2.5 inches rocker each end.

I have had wonderful paddling with the Curtis Nomad ( also from Colden now) and the Placid Boatworks RapidFire and the Hemlock Peregrine and Swift Heron.

I tend to feel most comfortable in anything that David Yost designed or the progeny of DY boats ( the Peregrine and Hemlock SRT are two but not directly from DY). He designs for seakindliness and seaworthiness .I.e user friendliness. Ted Bell boats are also Carl Yost designs ( Dave's son) and reflect the philosoply of his father.

I have been happy with my group of boats for several years and have not looked at the new Swifts much but have paddled the Keewaydin 15. Not the Cruiser that is new.

The Rob Roy is a great boat if you can find one. But it is not a kneeling boat at all as my RapidFire is not.

I paddled a Savage RIver Falcon.. Not a tripping boat and its got a knife like bow . It required contortions to get into.

 

[Gerald]

Thanks all.

Yes YC it's open canoe tripping boats that I am looking at. Decked canoes are too heavy for portaging and I'm not convinced there is enough room for 2 weeks of gear and forget about the 70 lb dog. I usually paddle from 5 - 6 am to 11 am - noon seeking kinder conditions but from 10 am on the wind and waves can sometimes be of concern when crossing an open lake to that comforting camp site.. As I get older both my knees and my courage have seen better times.

G

 

[gumpus]

2143]Thanks for the answers so far. Looking for an open canoe and under 40 lbs for portaging.

G.[/QUOTE]
I think I've owned well over 25 solo canoes over the years. The most seaworthy open boat I've owned is a Swift Shearwater...I had one years ago and missed it enough to buy another. It's suitable for big water. If I'm going to get hit with massive powerboat wakes I want to be in my Shearwater. It has a little more length, depth and volume than other seaworthy solos like the Northstar Northwind Solo or Hemlock Peregrine (both of which I have owned) and it turns much better so it's easy to maneuver in waves and never gets pushed around. It likes to have at least 200 pounds in it.

I just checked the Swift website to send you a link and it looks like they overhauled their website and no longer show the Shearwater. Mine is around 40 pounds or a touch more and I planned to get another lighter one in the future some time since it's so stable and friendly yet it cruises with very low effort. In my mind a Shearwater might eventually be my "last" solo (I currently have 5 solos).

Here's a link that shows and describes the boat.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...4,2,1,6&sim=11

A couple of pics of mine attached.

Cheers

 

[Gerald]

Thanks Gumpus. Geez I forgot about the Shearwater. Friend Ted has one and I remember paddling it empty. Sure is big enough for lots of gear and a dog. I'll check out the link.
G.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I remember paddling a Raven on the Gulf of Mexico. A strong cold front came in and for four days I was marooned on a very nice key with waves crashing.At three am on day five I ran for it. The waves were down to three feet and I could sneak a route avoiding the waves for the most part. I did have a one mile crossing with very high waves about ten miles later and the Raven rode them well with its roundish ends. However I was knackered as the boat was so slow. ( when the tide was against me I going at three mph I couldnt make headway)

In big water big boats make for safer paddling for sure but there are limits Both the Raven ( I had the 65 lb version so that would not be on Geralds short list. I guess it is no longer in production. Once up on a time for some reason it came in Kevlar too.

Gerald, If you get a chance to try Ted's do. But you may find it too big. I did alas. A dog entered the equation? That changes the dynamic.. You would need a high volume solo like the Shearwater Northwater or Nomad. My last dog's favorite boat was the Raven. She hated the Peregrine She would lay down in the Raven. She always STOOD in the Peregrine.. My current dog hates water and will lie down in anything. He has no intention of jumping out. Your dog has the final say alas!

 

[stripperguy]

That shearwater looks very similar to a JWinters Kite
I built a kite in cedar and glass at 39 lbs
I also built a carbon copy kite at 29 lbs
The kite is a waterline down twin to the Raven
Not the fastest boat on the water but extremely comfortable and seaworthy



oops, men is entirely correct!!

 

[memaquay]

Think the Kite is actually the twin of the Osprey, the Raven is a radically different boat. I have had my osprey out where it didn't belong, the kind of swells where you can't see the other canoes when you are in the trough, but I don't recommend it. The Raven in cedarstrip can keep pace with most solos, but I understand that the royalex version can be a dog. I'm hoping to build a new one this winter, aiming at around 45 pounds.

 

[gumpus]

The Shearwater is indeed a John Winters design along with the Osprey. I also have an Osprey and love it but if someone was going to drop me offshore in the ocean I'd rather be in the Shearwater. Shearwater gives up a little bit of efficiency relative to Osprey but it's still efficient enough for long upstream paddles. Osprey is a relatively low volume 15 footer. Some folks might recommend the Hemlock SRT for big water and I think the Northstar Phoenix would also keep you dry and safe in big water but I like the Shearwater better for the paddling I do...the ends do not stick in the water nearly as much as something like a Merlin II or Keewaydin 15 or Northstar Solo or Hemlock Peregrine so the Shearwater just never gets "pushed around" much.

 

[Gerald]

Thanks all for your input. Lots of knowledge and good advice shared here.

G.

 

[frozentripper]

John Winters' comments on the Osprey... no sure what his criteria are for "most severe conditions". His comments might be about twenty years old and earlier than that Bill Mason was paddling Superior in something more traditional.

IIRC Lightjay (Jay Morrison) reported broaching problems in an Osprey while paddling Temagami.

Despite its relatively low freeboard, it is a dry boat (I have paddled the north shore of Lake Superior in it without taking on more than a few small dollops in the most severe conditions one would like to paddle in) and the sculpted tumblehome midships allows good stroke mechanics despite the boat's 30 inch maximum beam.

http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html

 

[gumpus]

John Winters' comments on the Osprey... no sure what his criteria are for "most severe conditions". His comments might be about twenty years old and earlier than that Bill Mason was paddling Superior in something more traditional.

IIRC Lightjay (Jay Morrison) reported broaching problems in an Osprey while paddling Temagami.



http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html

I think it's very cool how the Osprey has stood the test of time and still remains such a unique and desirable boat. I have five solos now but if I could go only keep one it would be the Osprey. Osprey is quick and also lets you lean the gunnels down to the water with little resistance so it's super fun for just playing around on a quiet pond. It's more maneuverable and playful than any of Swift's current solos which seem to follow the trend towards increased friendliness for novice paddlers. For all it's playfulness it still cruises very nicely and I take it on long upstream paddles against current. BUT - it does have a reputation for being hard to control in a strong quartering tailwind...the stern has a strong tendency to want to blow around and you end up parallel to the waves. Bill Swift says it just needs to be trimmed correctly but mine has a sliding seat with lots of trim adjustment and I'd still say it's fussy in a strong quartering tailwind. I think it might be prone to the "moving center" effect where the center of rotation moves forward as you go faster (Osprey is almost constant width through the center of boat and lacks the fat middle of most canoes). Even in strong wind when I'm surfing waves and the boat may spin out I can just start over and go slower. I'm surprised to see Greenval show the design load as 283 pounds. Swift listed the efficient range at 160-260 and when I have a load around 265-275 (with the dog) the boat starts to feel burdened so in my experience Swift is spot on.

 

[dogbrain]

BUT - it does have a reputation for being hard to control in a strong quartering tailwind...the stern has a strong tendency to want to blow around and you end up parallel to the waves. Bill Swift says it just needs to be trimmed correctly but mine has a sliding seat with lots of trim adjustment and I'd still say it's fussy in a strong quartering tailwind. I think it might be prone to the "moving center" effect where the center of rotation moves forward as you go faster (Osprey is almost constant width through the center of boat and lacks the fat middle of most canoes). Even in strong wind when I'm surfing waves and the boat may spin out I can just start over and go slower.

My experience with the Kite, twin of the Osprey, and the rear quartering tailwind is almost exactly as you describe Gumpus. Any strong tailwind that contributes to accelerating the canoe will send it into an uncontrollable spin that can only be arrested with a hard stern pry or rudder, and slowing or almost stopping the boat. The "moving center" hypothesis sounds like it might apply here. Another thing about the hull is that the rocker is distributed along the entire length of the canoe, rather than near the ends which also might contribute to its unruliness. Even at rest, with the slightest breeze, my Kite wants to "spin out" making photography or fishing extremely frustrating. I understand there will always be an issue trying to control a boat under these conditions from the center position. The paddler simply has no leverage to keep the boat on course. I've tried all possible ways to trim the boat, and I usually put all the weight behind me to try and make it stick to no avail. My experience with other solo canoes is limited, so in the end I can't really compare how much worse the Kite is with other similar canoes. As much as I like the canoe, and how it handles in bigger water or rivers, I can't get past that problem. I'll probably move on to something else for tripping in the future, and it gives me an excuse to build another canoe.

Mark

 

[Robin]

Fabric decks, Northwater, Cooke Custom Sewing or cunningly DIY’ed, on a sea kindly canoe would be a lot less expensive as a possible solution.

No idea how well the Wenonah Argosy fits the “sea kindly” bill in heavy seas/broaching conditions.

When I suggested to Gerald about the Argosy and a canoe cover I did so with the knowledge that Gerald already owns an Argosy. He has also witnessed me cross a wind swept bay in La Verendrye in my covered Argosy while he and Yellowcanoe chose to sit it out and camp on a portage trail.

When it comes to the tecky stuff I'm pretty clueless, but I have been there and done that and a covered Argosy is a reasonable suggestion to the waters Gerald paddles.

I had no idea a dog (and a big dog for that matter) was involved and would not have suggested an Argosy in the first place if I did know. I would not attempt to paddle heavy seas/broaching conditions with a large dog in a solo canoe while on an extended canoe trip, but others might.

I might just hug the shoreline and work my way from point to point.

 

[Guest]

I have never paddled an Argosy, hence “no idea” how suitable it would be for heavy seas/broaching conditions. I thought it was marketed as more of a downriver solo.

I have hugged the shoreline to keep out of the wind and wave. And been surprised at the maelstrom when rounding a point out of more sheltered waters.