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Poll: What percent of the time do you use a double blade paddle solo?
- Thread starter Glenn MacGrady
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Not to be controversial, but "evolving" is a loaded term, in my opinion. Using a kayak paddle with a canoe is not evolving, it's just doing something a different way, kind of like using a spork, when in reality a spoon or a fork would be better, depending on the meal. My long time buddy started using a kayak paddle when he goes solo now, he's still my friend, but he brings a big flowery umbrella with him when he trips now, and he never did that when he was using a single blade.
I told this story before:
I was paddling up Lows Lake in a headwind many years ago when I was approached by the ranger Dawn in her kayak. After some small talk, she told me that I should bring a kayak paddle the next time to fight the wind. I didn't tell her I paddled in bays in Canada that where twice the size of this lake but I did tell her "I'll stay home before I use a kayak paddle". as I held up my clunky ash beavertail paddle.
"Some folks call it a slingblade, I call it a kaiser blade"
"Some folks call it a double blade, I call it a kayak paddle"
I was paddling up Lows Lake in a headwind many years ago when I was approached by the ranger Dawn in her kayak. After some small talk, she told me that I should bring a kayak paddle the next time to fight the wind. I didn't tell her I paddled in bays in Canada that where twice the size of this lake but I did tell her "I'll stay home before I use a kayak paddle". as I held up my clunky ash beavertail paddle.
"Some folks call it a slingblade, I call it a kaiser blade"
"Some folks call it a double blade, I call it a kayak paddle"
Ha ha ha. Some interesting and amusing perspectives here. I am no purist considering I paddle a clear coated kevlar canoe. But even that exemplifies what I do and my reasons. I paddle this canoe for the portages. Not so strange or backward reasoning when you consider it weighs 45 lbs and I'm a short aging lightweight. I stopped being comfortable lifting and carrying half my own body weight many years ago. But this canoe handles way too delicately lightly in the water than I'd prefer. You can't always get want you want I am told but you can get what you need. I love portages as part of my trips so I need a light canoe. It is comfortable on portages and moves prettily through the water; a compromise I am comfortable with. Another thing that's part of my gear I'm comfortable with is my deep water paddle, it's otter tailish in design perfect for solo paddling and the deep flat water exploring that I do. I am neither artist nor expert but I am kinda handy with it. I can move my canoe to wherever however I want it to. I am comfortable in the nimbleness and ease with which I can maneuver. And it feels so good in my hands, even when it's still. That's why I chose it. It feels good. I do have another Sugar Island type for plowing along on trips and it too feels good, though not as happy place wandering if you know what I mean. I kayak (yes, happily) with a kayak paddle and am adequate with it, but it will take much practise before I dare use the word proficient to describe my movements. Think less otter more walrus. I will get there some day. I did try out kayak paddles more than once with my canoe. And I can hear the jungle drums now. But I wanted to experiment with more moving power with speed. It worked, within my limited abilities. But then I got to thinking about comfort again and realized I don't trip with anything more than comfort in mind. Windy, watery tempest today? I'll stay ashore in comfort. Bumpy miles to go before the next port? I'll manage just nicely thanks with my bigger single blade choosing route and strategy as I go. Time and itinerary challenging my trip? Need to make some miles? Um, nope. Never. That's the whole point of the trip. I don't trip like that, heck I don't even drive like that anymore. I will get there when I get there, and when I do I'll get there in comfort.
ps The kayak paddles I experimented with in my canoe were all borrowed from family kayakers wherever we were at the time. I adjusted my locations and positions all without great success, though not great failure either. So the fit and function may've been less than ideal. Purchasing a made to me measure kayak paddle would've solved that but… I've chosen to dance with what brung me, my canoe paddle. We're gonna grow old together. In comfort.
ps The kayak paddles I experimented with in my canoe were all borrowed from family kayakers wherever we were at the time. I adjusted my locations and positions all without great success, though not great failure either. So the fit and function may've been less than ideal. Purchasing a made to me measure kayak paddle would've solved that but… I've chosen to dance with what brung me, my canoe paddle. We're gonna grow old together. In comfort.
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I feel the same. I really liked Dawn and her husband Greg. Endlessly friendly, she was so easy to spot from a long distance on Lows with her green kayak and flashing yellow paddle. I visited with her many times in good weather and bad, but she never recommended a kayak paddle to me. Since Greg has retired from being caretaker of the BSA camp, the family has now moved on to live in Maine, I believe. I will miss them both.
Not to be picky, but I think the thread is for double blade, which historically has been used/associated with canoes for a very long time (think 1900s). Most of the time, I use a double blade made specifically for a canoe, with a single blade as a backup. I do agree that the term evolving is/can be a loaded term, look at electric cars, there are folks that are die hard gas engine users (mine is gas, but I am not die hard about it) saying electric cars are the devils handiwork and will never measure up ... all the time ignoring that electric cars where the first ones on the scene. So maybe we aren't really evolving, but returning to the roots of the industry, maybe it's the same with double paddles, we are finally realizing they got it right a long time ago.
I have to admit I would be seriously worried about the relationship of flamboyant umbrella usage and using a double bladed paddle, but so far I am symptom free, although I used to have more hair and it was darker, i wonder if that is also related to DP usage.
Over on the hammock forum site they have a saying for gear discussions ... "Hang your own hang" ... it allows that what works for one person doesn't work for all people and you need to figure out what works best for you and follow that path. Whether that is a wood canvas boat, with a canvas tent and stove or a composite canoe, composite paddle and an ultra lite hammock ... they all do largely do the same thing, feed the inner need to be out there ,,,, I for one need/want to be out there and I will keep evolving/changing my gear to keep that happening for as long as I can.
Brian
"might be an interesting experiment to see if we are evolving"
Using a kayak paddle is the opposite of evolving; it is "devolving". It's almost always a technique retreat -- an admission that one can't control a canoe, or propel it at speed, with the traditional single blade technique that evolved over thousands of years in North America, first by the native Indians and then by the later immigrants who paddled traditional CanAm birch bark and wooden canoes, from the voyageurs to Omer Stringer.
The most sophisticated repository of traditional flatwater single blade technique is now resident among the "freestyle" community. The most sophisticated repository of single blade speed into wind and waves, or into upstream currents, is resident in the hit & switch racing community.
To be a technically accomplished single blade canoeist requires a concerted effort to become proficient with on-side and off-side correction, propulsion and turning strokes in all four quadrants of a canoe, and also proficient with hit and switch propulsion. If you want more power into the wind or up currents, you must learn how to use a short, light bent shaft paddle at high stroke rates. Then, always carry the proper tools for both techniques: a straight shaft and a bent shaft. When proficient in all single blade disciplines, you will not have a need or desire to use a double blade paddle.
Pack canoes and other sit-on-bottom crafts, with or without decks, have always been properly paddled with double blades. Nessmuk was an old, tubercular, 103 pound dwarf who could fit into a tiny Sairy Gamp and then make up a bunch of stories about it.
End perfectionist rant.
Using a kayak paddle is the opposite of evolving; it is "devolving". It's almost always a technique retreat -- an admission that one can't control a canoe, or propel it at speed, with the traditional single blade technique that evolved over thousands of years in North America, first by the native Indians and then by the later immigrants who paddled traditional CanAm birch bark and wooden canoes, from the voyageurs to Omer Stringer.
The most sophisticated repository of traditional flatwater single blade technique is now resident among the "freestyle" community. The most sophisticated repository of single blade speed into wind and waves, or into upstream currents, is resident in the hit & switch racing community.
To be a technically accomplished single blade canoeist requires a concerted effort to become proficient with on-side and off-side correction, propulsion and turning strokes in all four quadrants of a canoe, and also proficient with hit and switch propulsion. If you want more power into the wind or up currents, you must learn how to use a short, light bent shaft paddle at high stroke rates. Then, always carry the proper tools for both techniques: a straight shaft and a bent shaft. When proficient in all single blade disciplines, you will not have a need or desire to use a double blade paddle.
Pack canoes and other sit-on-bottom crafts, with or without decks, have always been properly paddled with double blades. Nessmuk was an old, tubercular, 103 pound dwarf who could fit into a tiny Sairy Gamp and then make up a bunch of stories about it.
End perfectionist rant.
G
Guest
Guest
Brian, well put. I have never understood the need to ridicule the use of a double blade in a standard open canoe. Should we have waters regulated for “Single Blade Use Only”, so purists don’t need to bleach their eyes at the sight of a double blade in a canoe?
Yes, that is getting a bit reductio ad absurdum. Much of the single vs double debate runs toward that end. I read that Hitler would only use a single blade :-O
Using most kayak length doubles in an open canoe, while possible, would be awkward and inefficient. No question the available choices in a canoe-length double blade have evolved in the past decade, from nothing but aluminum and plastic Mohawk DBCP’s and long, heavy wood doubles to sophisticated carbon/carbon paddles designed for and made in canoe appropriate lengths.
Sophistication, technical accomplishment and perfectionism can as easily be applied to someone practiced and proficient using a double blade, even in an open canoe. Unless of course you are under the misconception that there is nothing more to it than going splish-splash on opposite sides.
According to Glenn’s 2016 poll results 25.71% of the respondents report using double blades at least some of the time, and some of the respondents chose “Never” because there was not a “Less than 25% of the time” option.
Assuming that those 26% of folks lack sophistication or accomplishment with a single blade is painting with a dang wide brush. A couple of friends who occasionally use a double blade are very accomplished single bladers; instructors and guides and folks with many decades of single blade tripping experience. Unsurprisingly many of them rejected even bringing a double until light weight canoe-designed double blades were available.
If Aristotelian logic is based on deductive reasoning methinks Glenn doth deduce too much about some folks using double blade paddles in canoes.
Maybe some double bladers do lack single blade skills. Maybe they will eventually pick up a single blade - oh look, most respondents who use a double blade also use a single - and learn to meet the high standards set by single blading perfectionists.
Or maybe they will never measure up and should just stay home and watch Netflix. I’d rather have them out and about as paddlers, sharing my concerns about access, regulations, clean water and backcountry ethics. Even if they are, gasp, kayakers.
Aristotelian logic and reductio ad absurdum in one post. End double blader rant.
Seems to me the one reason everyone gives for using the DDB (dirty double blade) is the speed factor. Are there other reasons? Just askin for a friend.
Mem, I can't speak for anyone else other than me. When I am soloing and I get out on open water, I find the DB gives better efficiency and a higher degree of directional control ... I can go for a lot longer with a DB than I can with a single blade, it is just more comfortable and natural. I like to use a comparison of a 2 stroke versus a 4 stroke engine ... for a given displacement, the 2 stroke will always have a big advantage.
Don't get me wrong, I still use a single blade in some situations (say loafing along a narrow stream or exploring close to shore) and I think I have fairly good skills with that as well.
When the wind and waves kick up, I have double the strokes to work with keeping headed in the right direction, plus with a canoe DB the blade is out a bit so you get more leverage to correct the boats tracking.
Last spring, there was a very stiff wind and waves, a latecomer showed up in the afternoon, and just couldn't make headway to the camp with his SB. We spotted him and one of the guys headed off with a DB for him to try, they both made it back, the DB made that much difference. He still uses a SB .. it is what he has and what he likes to use ... and I say power to him, he will use the tool he needs when he needs it.
I have made Otter tails, beaver tails, Canoe Doubles, Sugar Island and Sugar Islet (bent shaft) and to be honest they all have a time and place, depending on where I am going I select the paddles I think will serve me best ...
Brian
Don't get me wrong, I still use a single blade in some situations (say loafing along a narrow stream or exploring close to shore) and I think I have fairly good skills with that as well.
When the wind and waves kick up, I have double the strokes to work with keeping headed in the right direction, plus with a canoe DB the blade is out a bit so you get more leverage to correct the boats tracking.
Last spring, there was a very stiff wind and waves, a latecomer showed up in the afternoon, and just couldn't make headway to the camp with his SB. We spotted him and one of the guys headed off with a DB for him to try, they both made it back, the DB made that much difference. He still uses a SB .. it is what he has and what he likes to use ... and I say power to him, he will use the tool he needs when he needs it.
I have made Otter tails, beaver tails, Canoe Doubles, Sugar Island and Sugar Islet (bent shaft) and to be honest they all have a time and place, depending on where I am going I select the paddles I think will serve me best ...
Brian
Oh sure.. friend.. yah.. Having an instant brace on either side. Very important in tidal waters. Those whirlpools and boils pop up seemingly at random.. And you need to power through both. When one appears you( they are usually small) being able to instantly power through the opposite side is lifesaving. Boils give no support and whirlpools can pull you down. I am not that fast in cross strokes with out edging ( edging the wrong way in a whirlpool can be disastrous)
For lake paddling the double blade exercises the body symmetrically and less muscle fatigue might be noticeable.
I personally am better at engaging large muscles- the abs) with a double than a single. Again large muscle use means less fatigue.
However the double blade technique is HARD to do efficiently. SIngle blading is harder to do initially; double blading can be done by anyone but incredibly hard to make efficient.
As an ardent proponent of the double I stay clear of these threads. It is hard to change what others prefer to use. Back in '12 BobB and I entered WCPP for a thirty day trip. We separated after two portages with plans to meet on Royd Lake in 20 days. Twice planes came in as other trippers came and went. Each time I was told that BobB was already holed up on Royd Lake but sending Spot messages saying "OK in camp." Obviously things were not all OK. After the second plane drop off there were three of us making our way to BobB on pRoyd. A third plane drop was bringing in Jim M that the Minjim route in WCPP was named for. Knowing this we arrived on Royd a day early so if BobB was too badly injured he could be prepared to leave on that plane.
Bob is a staunch traditionalist and only kneels with his single blade. A knee was so inflamed that he had been camp bound on Royd for 16 days. He opted to stay and paddle out with us. I assured him that was fine but if things went south with his knee he would have to sit back in his canoe and let me tow him with my DOUBLEBLADE!! He winched in pain every stroke but kept his dignity.
Bob is a staunch traditionalist and only kneels with his single blade. A knee was so inflamed that he had been camp bound on Royd for 16 days. He opted to stay and paddle out with us. I assured him that was fine but if things went south with his knee he would have to sit back in his canoe and let me tow him with my DOUBLEBLADE!! He winched in pain every stroke but kept his dignity.
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That is what I found too YC...the double is harder for me to use in a canoe. Works good in a yak but I find that I tend to get more upper body twist in the canoe than I do with a single. I can single all day without tiring but the double takes more energy for me.
Still haven't heard anything to convince me. Perhaps when I was younger, the speed factor might have attracted me. I actually don't have a problem with speed when I go solo, I'm sure I couldn't keep up to a DDB, but I'm usually ahead of most tandems. I owned a kayak once when I was young and unformed. I can't even remember what happened to it, think I traded it for a case of beer or something, and was convinced I got the better deal. I guess i just don't like kayaking, and the motions of the DDB. Plus I don't like how it looks in a canoe, just seems unnatural. I guess i would need a really good reason, other than increased speed, to ever think about trying it, and I haven't heard a good reason yet.
My reasons for always using the DDB are many. First I enjoy mindlessly cruising all day. If the wind shifts it is easy to adjust and maintain a straight course. I like being able to move at a fair pace while only " Lily dipping" the DDB. I never have to switch sides. I can sit back in the Crazy Creek chair if only " Lily dipping." When the winds are blowing hard I can easily control the canoe with the leverage provided by the DDB.
My joy of using the double blade is enhanced by using one designed for low angle canoe paddling. An all carbon paddle makes it easy on the muscles I am using. I first tried the double and found that an old injury did not remind me it was there after paddling a few hours.
Maybe I am just lazy as besides the Werner carbon paddle I also rely on a GPS for navigation. Oh, when I deer hunt I use a Crossbow so I may be a lost cause.LOL.
My joy of using the double blade is enhanced by using one designed for low angle canoe paddling. An all carbon paddle makes it easy on the muscles I am using. I first tried the double and found that an old injury did not remind me it was there after paddling a few hours.
Maybe I am just lazy as besides the Werner carbon paddle I also rely on a GPS for navigation. Oh, when I deer hunt I use a Crossbow so I may be a lost cause.LOL.
G
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Guest
Mem, I think “speed” is a straw man single bladers throw out because it is easy to knock down. At a steady cruising pace I am no faster than my single blading companions. I could be, but the conventional “wisdom” is that I would wear out faster.
Of course many of my friends are single blading narrower solo canoes, and I am pushing a soloized Penobscot or Malecite. At a non-race pace our comfortable cruising speeds are about equal.
How much faster depends on the double blader. I’ve used a double blade in some short (12+ mile) anything-goes windy/tidal rec races, and kept at it the entire distance above my usually cruising speed. Yeah, I was worn out at the end, but I had time to rest a spell waiting for single blade friends to arrive.
I have two reasons for using a double blade; one is conditional, the other physiological
Solo, into a strong headwind, I find a double blade easier. Specifically solo, paddling a tandem with a partner is a different story. Maybe my hit and switch technique is lacking, but most of my preferred soloized tandems make poor hit and switch boats. Or in my case sit and switch.
A lot of what I (we) paddles is open windy waters, often shallow bays that produce steep constant chop. The “we” includes friends who have adopted a double blade as another tool in their toolbox to help in those conditions. I have a friend or two who absolutely refuse to consider using a double and in those shallow open water conditions they do lag behind, proudly struggling.
The physiological reason is that I severely injured a wrist years ago and it was never been right since. I can goonstroke or gunwale pry to some degree without immediate pain, but a “proper” single blade canoe stroke will quickly leave me in agony.
Looking at the responses on this thread a couple of other double bladers mentioned similar issues with a single blade.
Perhaps a third reason. Muscle memory. I have been using a double blade as my primary paddle for almost 30 years. I do carry a straight single blade, and use it in specific circumstances, albeit briefly. My muscle memory and comfort now is all about the double blade.
Interesting, I suppose. I never switch sides paddling, unless its a cross draw. I haven't experienced any problems making a canoe go straight either, or making it go wherever I want it to, for that matter, and when the winds blow hard, with waves cresting over two feet or so, I really think I would prefer the old single stick. I'm not sure how the kayak paddle works, but when it comes time to plant a solid draw or pry, I think I would rather have my grip hand wrapped around the grip, instead of having it wrapped around a shaft with three feet of paddle sticking up in the air above me. Anyway, I hope to get out paddling today, maybe I'll take my stepson's kayak paddle out and give it a real honest try, and then leave an informed commentary, instead of just my biased opinion.
"I think “speed” is a straw man single bladers throw out because it is easy to knock down."
Um, no. It's something that is repeated in many many many trip reports. Just look. And I think you're just being defensive. That's okay I guess.
Speed and ease both are in fact the reasons I considered the kayak paddle for my canoe. I've got the ease covered with my canoe paddle up to a point, and the ease is relative. Having read many trip reports of double bladers quickly covering distance with ease prompted my interest. But when it comes down to it it's a purely personal choice IMO. It may never be so black and white if we're all each of us wearing our own rose coloured glasses. I never leave home without 'em.
I think it's worth a try memequay. I am not trying to convert you one way or another. I may even knit you a sock.
Um, no. It's something that is repeated in many many many trip reports. Just look. And I think you're just being defensive. That's okay I guess.
Speed and ease both are in fact the reasons I considered the kayak paddle for my canoe. I've got the ease covered with my canoe paddle up to a point, and the ease is relative. Having read many trip reports of double bladers quickly covering distance with ease prompted my interest. But when it comes down to it it's a purely personal choice IMO. It may never be so black and white if we're all each of us wearing our own rose coloured glasses. I never leave home without 'em.
I think it's worth a try memequay. I am not trying to convert you one way or another. I may even knit you a sock.
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G
Guest
Guest
Mem, good luck.
If I had to choose between using a high-angle 220 or 230cm kayak double blade and an old Feather Brand single I’d eat a handful of Ibuprofen and grab the single blade.
G
Guest
Guest
You omitted an important part of what I wrote
My apologies, I guess, if that came off as “defensive”. I will grant that a double can be faster. At full effort, or in the short run.
Kruger and Landick experimented with double vs single blade. I believe it is mentioned in The Ultimate Canoe Challenge; I paged through that book but didn’t feel like re-reading the entire thing. Might be in one of the other books about Kruger’s expeditions.
In a nutshell their conclusion was that the double blade user pulled ahead in the morning, but the single blader caught up and passed by later in the day. Of course they were paddling decked canoes with rudders.
FWIW some of Landick’s thoughts on single vs double blades
http://race.fit2paddle.com/C1450826492/E20070405111415/index.html
Doubles vs singles is, to me, a fascinating topic. Although I really don’t give a rat’s patootie what someone else uses to paddle their canoe.
