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Oswegatchie River, October 10 and 11th 2024

I think the more you lean the easier you will turn regardless of which way you lean.

True. For those who don't know, leaning or tipping the hull off level is often referred to as "heeling." To enhance a turn, you heel the hull with a lower body weight shift while keeping your torso vertical. This is also called the "J lean" because your body sort of twists into the shape of a J.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

Yes, the comments about heeling the hull into or away from a turn may be a bit confused. Let's say you are paddling a twisty creek and you come up to a sharp right bend. What I and yknpdlr are saying is that most lake boats will turn sharper if you heel the left side of the hull down—i.e., heeling "away from" or "to the outside of" the right turn. And vice versa for a left turn.

It doesn't matter whether you are paddling on the right, left or with a double paddle when you are heeling to the outside of a turn, although it may help the turn if you can do a sweep stroke on the outside, assuming you're paddling with a single blade on the outside of the turn. If your paddle is on the inside of the turn while you are heeling to the outside, you can of course switch paddle hands to enhance the turn with an outside sweep stroke. Or, if you keep the paddle on the inside of the turn, you can enhance the turn with a bow draw or deep C stroke while heeling to the outside of the turn.

A lot of canoe terminology is redundant, inconsistent and hence confusing, but some people call an outside heel turn a "carve turn" and an inside heel turn a "pivot turn." Highly rockered canoes, such as whitewater canoes, are usually heeled to the inside of a turn—hence pivot turned. Further with terminology, flatwater freestyle lingo calls an outside heel turn a "post turn" and an inside heel turn an "axle turn."
 
Correct, for example to turn left around a sharp river bend, paddle on the right side and lean to the right, the hull will make a left curving banana shape in the water. When I do this while solo, I will hear when the stern "breaks lock" with the surface as the bow spins to the left, completing carving of the turn left. Finish to end the rotation and straighten course with a firm J stroke still on the right side. The "lean" is quite the opposite of the lean you do to toward the inside while on a bicycle for completely different mechanics reasons.
 
I’m reluctant to post this because I’m no expert in hydrodynamics or canoe strokes…, but, IMO, different shaped boats react differently to leans. For example, a Mad River Explorer tends to carve the side of the hull, turning away from the side to which you lean. An Old Town Appalachian, leaned the same way, will carve the rockered bottom of the hull, and turn towards the side to which you lean. So, I think you have to consider the hull shape when leaning to turn. The same lean will produce different turns depending on the hull. Am I wrong about this?
 
True. For those who don't know, leaning or tipping the hull off level is often referred to as "heeling." To enhance a turn, you heel the hull with a lower body weight shift while keeping your torso vertical. This is also called the "J lean" because your body sort of twists into the shape of a J.



Yes, the comments about heeling the hull into or away from a turn may be a bit confused. Let's say you are paddling a twisty creek and you come up to a sharp right bend. What I and yknpdlr are saying is that most lake boats will turn sharper if you heel the left side of the hull down—i.e., heeling "away from" or "to the outside of" the right turn. And vice versa for a left turn.

It doesn't matter whether you are paddling on the right, left or with a double paddle when you are heeling to the outside of a turn, although it may help the turn if you can do a sweep stroke on the outside, assuming you're paddling with a single blade on the outside of the turn. If your paddle is on the inside of the turn while you are heeling to the outside, you can of course switch paddle hands to enhance the turn with an outside sweep stroke. Or, if you keep the paddle on the inside of the turn, you can enhance the turn with a bow draw or deep C stroke while heeling to the outside of the turn.

A lot of canoe terminology is redundant, inconsistent and hence confusing, but some people call an outside heel turn a "carve turn" and an inside heel turn a "pivot turn." Highly rockered canoes, such as whitewater canoes, are usually heeled to the inside of a turn—hence pivot turned. Further with terminology, flatwater freestyle lingo calls an outside heel turn a "post turn" and an inside heel turn an "axle turn."
I'm talking about leaning into the turn, like you would do on a bicycle. This would be "inside carving" as described in Tom Fosters videos. I agree with you and Ykn Paddler that an outside lean can turn sharper, but this is because it is a pivot and not a carve. In my view a pivot will turn quicker because you can do it without forward movement where as to carve you need to be moving forward. Like I stated earlier in this thread I was doing inside carves on the tight bends and they enabled me to keep my speed up more so than if I did an outside pivot turn. There were only a couple bends that I couldn't carve around and lost momentum doing a pivot.

For what I'm doing, inside turns feel more carved then outside turns. The boat turns easier and it feels more natural then an outside turn. The hull leans the same way a motorboat would, turn to the left and the boat will lean to the left.

Correct, for example to turn left around a sharp river bend, paddle on the right side and lean to the right, the hull will make a left curving banana shape in the water. When I do this while solo, I will hear when the stern "breaks lock" with the surface as the bow spins to the left, completing carving of the turn left. Finish to end the rotation and straighten course with a firm J stroke still on the right side. The "lean" is quite the opposite of the lean you do to toward the inside while on a bicycle for completely different mechanics reasons.
Well I guess that there is some element of carving in both onside and offside leans.

I’m reluctant to post this because I’m no expert in hydrodynamics or canoe strokes…, but, IMO, different shaped boats react differently to leans. For example, a Mad River Explorer tends to carve the side of the hull, turning away from the side to which you lean. An Old Town Appalachian, leaned the same way, will carve the rockered bottom of the hull, and turn towards the side to which you lean. So, I think you have to consider the hull shape when leaning to turn. The same lean will produce different turns depending on the hull. Am I wrong about this?

Different hulls do act differently, that's for sure. Even the same hull will act different depending on where you are seated. From a more centralized position the hull can turn away from the side you are heeled over to. That same boat when leaned over from the stern seat will turn towards the side you are leaning towards.
 
Thanks for posting and the pictures! I use an Ursack to defeat the mice but will probably move to a barrel on trips like these. Did you take this trip upriver? I looked for this river on the tubes, and it seems people are going UP the river. If this is the norm, why is that?
 
I looked for this river on the tubes, and it seems people are going UP the river. If this is the norm, why is that?

Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


 
Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


Thanks, I appreciate it!
 
Most folks travel upstream from Inlet to High Falls and then back downstream. That's because the best way to start upstream is to undertake the Lows Lake (Bog River) to Oswegatchie traverse, which includes a mile portage and then a 2.4 mile portage and is a much longer trip with many beaver dams above High Falls. Several folks here have done the traverse, and here's some info on it:


That link is what what I needed, especially since I'm investigating trips in that area. The description of the various trips that outfitter helps out on is great!
 
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