Osprey vs Kite?

[Steve in Idaho]

I've been watching the Kite build threads with interest, because I'm hoping to build my first stripper shortly after I retire (hopefully early next year), if not sooner. I had planned to build the Osprey, but so much recent interest in the Kite has me wondering which is better. For those of you who have paddled both - what are the advantages/disadvantages of each over the other? Is one easier to build than the other - enough so to cancel the other's advantages?

If you were fixin' to build your first stripper and possibly replacing a Dagger Sojourn with it (darn the storage limitations!), which would you go with?

 

[Alan Gage]

I've never paddled an Osprey but as far as I know, which is only from what I've read at the Greenval site, the Kite and the Osprey are the same hull with the exception of the tumblehome/knuckle. The only difference is that Martin Step, who owns Greenval and sells the plans, changed the design so the knuckle runs all the way to the stems. He thinks it's more aesthetically pleasing, and I agree, and some think it's a slightly easier way to build it.

In case you haven't seen it here's the Kite page at Greenval: http://www.greenval.com/kite.html

Alan

 

[dogbrain]

Another possible advantage the Kite has over the Osprey is that I have forms for the Kite already cut that you could certainly use. Of course you'll still have to buy the plans from Martin. I'm all done with them for now and I'm sure there's a way to get them from here in Montana to where you are in Idaho. My brother lives in McCall and I'm over there a couple times a year, or when he's here he could bring them back that way. We also make at least one trip to Utah each year if you're on that side of the state. If you want to try before you buy, once I'm done with my Kite we could set up a time and a place somewhere in between. Just throwing it out there. Mark

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Mark, my son lives in Idaho Falls. My Niece lives in Donnelly. I've been wanting to show Flathead lake to my wife. Her aunt lives in Moscow.........

I bet we can arrange some kind of meeting.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

What I'm wondering is if the knuckle allows a wetter ride than the Osprey. But if the Kite is an easier build....well....it is a water sport, after all.

 

[memaquay]

I've built two Ospreys...from looking at the Kite builds on this site, I wouldn't say the Kite is any easier to build. The Knuckle has to be contended with in both canoes. Perhaps ask Martin at Greenvalley what his thoughts are on the two.

 

[stripperguy]

I built a Kite in 2014, my buddy built an Osprey in 2015. I helped him strip and glass his Osprey.
I would say that the Kite was actually easier to strip because the knuckle was straight forward, very easy to strip as the knuckle runs from stem to stem...the midway transition of the knuckle on the Osprey was a little tricky.
I haven't paddled his Osprey yet, but I would say it should be a wetter ride than the Kite. The Kite has some above waterline flare (especially forward), enabled by the knuckle being carried forward (and aft) farther than the Osprey. From the waterline down, the boats are nearly identical.

From a strictly aesthetic point of view, I much prefer the Kite and its unique profile. But that's strictly a personal POV, performance wise, they should be much the same. Uhmmm...maybe the Kite will tolerate a bit more heel? A bunch of us are going on a group paddle this weekend (a first for me) and my buddy with the Osprey might join us. If so, I can give a direct comparison paddling report next Monday.

 

[dogbrain]

Steve, I would have to be convinced that the kite is an easier build. Since it was my first strip canoe, I don't have anything to compare. The knuckle didn't present anything too difficult to strip, but I think that a canoe without that knuckle would take less time in the end. I think that sanding and especially laying the glass around that knuckle, inside and out, is most certainly more difficult than a boat without that transition. The flat tapered stems make up for it a little bit though, but that part is the same on the osprey. As far as a dryness comparison you might be correct, but I doubt there's much of a real practical difference. Martin Step at Green Valley most likely has some first hand knowledge.

Sounds like you are about where I was one year ago with trying to decide what to build. Sounds like we can put together a plan to get those forms to you at some point and maybe give the boat a spin. Mark

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Stripperguy - thanks for the insight. Hope you get to do that side-by-side.

Mark - I really appreciate the offer. When I quit sitting the fence, I'll PM you to discuss a future rendezvous.

 

[Jim Dodd]

OK Steve !

Time to get off the fence !!
Time of the year is perfect, especially when some one offers you forms and hopefully strongback !

Mark has done great so far, and would be good support !

GO FOR IT !

Sorry if I sound over bearing ! Just wanting to hear more from others building canoes !! Ha

Jim

 

[Steve in Idaho]

The good news is that I already have a strongback.

 

[stripperguy]

Stripperguy - thanks for the insight. Hope you get to do that side-by-side.

Steve,
I just got off the phone with my buddy and he is definitely joining us. So I'll be paddling his Osprey for sure, and I can post my impressions (for what they're worth) Sunday night or Monday morning.

And if I were you, I wouldn't wait to build your boat. Do it now, so you can have unlimited time in the boat during retirement!!

 

[dogbrain]

I can't wait to hear your comparison SG. Steve, you already have a strongback? Have you started hoarding cedar boards yet? rummaging through the stacks at the lumberyards? You only need about 10 - 12 foot 1x4's for a solo boat. I've found lots of nice knot free boards at Lowes here in Montana for only 85 cents a linear foot. That's only $100 for the wood. I think most of their cedar comes from either northern Idaho or southern BC. Mine all have "Selkirk' stamped on the ends, and the boards are all 7/8" thick. A lot cheaper than ordering boards from a specialty place and paying more than double, and they're only 11/16" thick. There's a huge sawmill in Grangeville, Idaho, and I've seen trucks with big old cedar logs pulling in there but never stopped to ask where to get some of that wood locally. I'll bet you could really get some nice long clear boards from there. I might investigate that the next time I head over to McCall.

Not much pressure coming from this quarter either.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I have a pile of 12' and 14' cedar fence boards that I bought cheap from a prefab home manufacturer that was clearing out leftover stock from discontinued models. My wife thinks we're building fence with it. I need to check the thickness.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Steve

When you are looking at the boards for strips. Check the grain orientation.
You want the planks to be flat sawn, so that your strips come out quarter sawn. These make the best strips.

Jim

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Thanks, Jim. Fact is, I'm going to be using a lot of cedar boards here - so I'm always on the lookout for deals. I have a fence to build and a lot of trim needed on my shed I built for storage. Now I'll be checking the grain on every board and setting aside the good ones.

 

[stripperguy]

Okay,
After a weekend of side by side comparisons:
My belief (much like Alan's) was that the Kite and Osprey were essentially the same hull below the waterline.
Uhmm, I guess that's not the case at all. Unless my buddy with 35 years of strip building experience made some huge error, I can tell you that the hulls are not the same at all. His Osprey is quite a bit narrower, and more rounded below the waterline. My Kite is more arched, and broader amidships. His Osprey is not as easy to single blade as my Kite. I have been paddling in all types of canoes from Olympic C1's to 8 man voyagers...(for point of reference) and this thing is nervous. With a mid height mounted seat, the Osprey was uncomfortable for me. The Kite also tracks better but is a bit slower.
If it were me, I would set up the Osprey as a kneeler only. We didn't have any rough water, but it appears that the Osprey would take more water, due to lower volume forward and less flare above the waterline.

I hope that's enough info to guide you to choose the best hull for your desired uses...

 

[Jim Dodd]

I purchased a set of unused plans, for the John Winters, Osprey, from a guy on Ebay, years ago.
This thread prompted me to dig them out.
As I opened the box, I see a note that the plans were ordered in July 2000. It states the amid ship knuckle to tumblehome.

Now looking at the plans the first three forms show no tumble home,but from there to the center, it shows a shouldered tumble home, of at least 2" on each side, at the center. It is an Asymetrical hull, with more rocker fore.

It has a pretty standard amount of flare, and I would say fairly flat bottomed.
John describes.
" The Osprey was originally intended as my personal boat. It is what I perceive to be the ideal small solo canoe for Canadian wilderness travel. The designed displacement is adequate for a large paddler on a week long trip, or a small paddler for longer trips. Unlike most American solos, this boat is heavily rockered forward with slightly less aft. The combination provides good maneuverability in smaller streams, and excellent tracking on open water"

Despite it's relatively low freeboard, it a dry boat( I have paddled the North shore of Lake Superior in it without taking on more than a few small dollops in the most severe conditions one would like to paddle in ) and sculpted tumblehome midships allows good stroke mechanics despite the boat's 30" maximum beam.

It has a load designed for 283# and is 14'10" overall.

The first thing I would do is ditch the stems and build stemless. That's me !

 

[Steve in Idaho]

....My Kite is more arched, and broader amidships. His Osprey is not as easy to single blade as my Kite. I have been paddling in all types of canoes from Olympic C1's to 8 man voyagers...(for point of reference) and this thing is nervous. With a mid height mounted seat, the Osprey was uncomfortable for me. The Kite also tracks better but is a bit slower.....

Gaahh!

I was hoping I could build one boat that would be as fast or faster than the Sojourn, but more maneuverable - without giving up so much primary as to rule out fishing. I though maybe one of the two would be a no-brainer. Maybe I'll have to build both. Hmmmm. Back to the specs...

 

[memaquay]

If it were me, I would set up the Osprey as a kneeler only. We didn't have any rough water, but it appears that the Osprey would take more water, due to lower volume forward and less flare above the waterline.

Here's where the subjective nature of canoeing comes into play. For several years, the Osprey was my primary solo and it went through the worst conditions possible. It carried me across 3 kilometers of open water with six foot swells, dry. I ran countless class 2 and 3 rapids with it, mostly dry. And I very rarely kneeled. In fact, almost never. I put several thousand K on that canoe, in both my daily paddle sessions and many extended trips.

Personally, I don't like the looks of the Kite. It's too yakky looking for me.

Now if you want an excellent all around solo that will continue to carry you as your waistline grows and your tripping load increases, order plans for the Raven from Martin.