Obvious safety violation: Say something or keep quiet?

[tketcham]

Yesterday while canoeing on a local lake (~300 acres) my wife and I noticed a man (maybe late 20's) and a kid (maybe six years old) out in a canoe and the kid wasn't wearing a PFD. Neither was the man. He was struggling to keep the (inexpensive, short tandem) canoe going straight because he was in the far stern seat and the kid was sitting on the center thwart/yoke so the canoe was practically half out of the water. He would swing the paddle straight up over his head from side to side to avoid splashing water on the kid so he obviously wasn't familiar with correction strokes.

I wanted to stop and suggest having the kid move to the bow seat to trim the canoe up better and show him at least how to do a stern pry correction so he wouldn't have to switch so often. But more importantly, should we have let him know that the kid should be wearing (by law) a "life jacket". I couldn't tell if there were flotation devices in the boat or not. Part of me hesitated to say anything because the kid didn't seem really comfortable in the canoe and if there wasn't a PFD for them to wear it might make them more anxious than they already were. They were more or less staying relatively close to shore and there wasn't any wind action, water temps were probably in the mid 70F's. We were headed back to the take out and while they were not alone, there weren't many paddlers still out because it was late afternoon. Help wouldn't be right there if they tipped.

What would you have done?

 

[MyKneesHurt]

Most of the times I've 'helped' people who were making a cock of it, the advice wasn't very welcome. Dads are tetchy about getting shown up in front of their kids. A quiet word to a ranger, or park employee, is generally where I compromise, seeing things like that. ("You may want to keep an eye on x-y-z", or something to that effect.)
In the conditions you described, an upset would have gotten them wet and not much more, so I'd have left well enough alone.

 

[Gamma1214]

I'd have swung close, said "hi" and asked if I could make a suggestion. If it were well received, great, if not, well, you're on your own butthead (and I'd have tried to make boat control look absolutely effortless as I paddled away).

I'd have started with helping the guy control the boat. Not only would that help him enjoy the experience but it would help him accept other suggestions once he could see positive results from the first.

That done, I would have suggested a pfd at least for the kid. If the kid freaked out, I'd have lied to him and told him it would be ok as long as dad stayed close to the shore.

 

[MrPoling]

The situation you describe shows ignorance or worse on so many levels. My experience is such folk normally don't want help, at least until they are in serious trouble. Also folks who do stuff like that are often intoxicated. Normally I just try to stay away from them.

A 6-year-old without a life jacket is a pretty serious issue. I know very few 6-year-olds I'd toss out of a canoe without a life jacket. If I was in in a park or somewhere with authority nearby I'd do as MyKneesHurt suggests and tell the ranger.

 

[martin2007]

No, the young man wouldn't like being told, and would probably be unpleasant. So out of politeness you say nothing and therefore normalize his inappropriate behaviour. If you learn later that day about a drowning incident involving the father and vulnerable trusting son, you would have to live with the fact that you had been afraid of annoying an ill-informed and incompetent paddler, and had chosen not to reinforce the message that has to be reinforced not only by authorities i.e. wardens but by other paddlers, people whom the young dad will recognize, in spite of his initial embarrassment and hurt pride, as better skilled and better informed than he. Your message to the dad could help lead to a change in his practice.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Yes, I'd be concerned about the 6 year old kid. Maybe its my elderly age status, easily old enough to be the father's father, but I probably would have swung by and said something.

I'd start a conversation about something neutral, such as what a nice day it was. Then I'd mention canoeing has been my lifelong hobby. If that went okay, I'd offer a few tips about trimming the canoe and correction stroking. I'd eventually get around to safety, especially if there is in fact a state law about PFDs having to be worn. In that case, I would have the advantage of saying this as a friendly old lawyer. If the guy was really close to shore, I might soften my approach by saying, "You may not be in real danger this close to shore in this warm water and air, but you could be in different conditions. It's like learning to drive in a big parking lot. You practice with the same care you would exercise on the highway, including wearing your seatbelts."

If the guy doesn't like it, I don't care. I did what I felt was right——offer some polite suggestions—which is the important thing to me. Maybe after I get out of sight, the father then decides to accept some or all of the advice he was unwilling to accept when I was in his presence. Or maybe he thinks about it the next time he goes paddling. Some people are like that. "You know, kid, maybe that old guy had a point."

 

[scoutergriz]

I've done like Glenn suggests in similar situations, start chatting with the guy about the water, weather, boat etc to break the ice, throw in a couple of mild hints about direction control, trim, or other paddling related stuff, work in your amount of experience- I like to casually bring up my over 2 decades of teaching kids paddling, and offer to help the kid a bit with their technique to "set the hook" then proceed to offer the friendly warnings- "I notice you're kid has no PFD on, it's law in XXX" or inform him " you can be nailed for reckless endangerment here (applies literally anywhere) and I'd really hate to see a cop or warden spot you and wreck your holiday"
If kept friendly and casual with no confrontations it's almost always well received, if not, then go find a warden...

 

[memaquay]

It's not a clear cut thing to me. I generally try to stay out of people's business, especially in today's climate, when an attempt to tell a yahoo to put a lifejacket on a six year old could well end up with a shouting match about "freedom" with the associated curses about the "libtard" interfering with god given rights, or some other kind of populist nonsense.

However, if my wife was in the boat, she would probably tell the guy in no uncertain terms, without any hesitation or attempts to be nice, to put the lifejacket on the kid, and if he backtalked, she would burn him to the water with a flamethrower.

This type of issue has been out front in Canada for a while. In 2017, a jailbird loser, drunk and high, thought it would be a great idea to take his girlfriend's 8 year old son for a paddle on April 7th in a swollen river, to try to pry some junk from the top of a dam. The canoe capsized and the 8 year old died. This has lead to some changes in the laws surrounding canoeing and drinking in Canada, but the case really does sicken me, and make me disgusted with humanity.

MANDEL: Impaired canoeist gets stiff six-year sentence in boy's drowning death

BRACEBRIDGE — David Sillars actually smiled as he was led out of the courtroom, knowing full well he wasn’t about to begin his six-year sentence for causing…

torontosun.com

Currently in Canada, there is no law forcing a six year old to wear a lifejacket, as long as there is one in the boat for him. There is a movement afoot to try to change this.

 

[tketcham]

Thank you all for the thoughtful perspectives. My wife and I talked about it some more and agreed that if we come across a situation like that again we'll definitely do the right thing and at least stop to chat with them and mention the PFD requirement for children. Whether or not the adult accepts the impromptu paddling lesson is less important than the safety aspect, but who knows, they might appreciate being able to get back to the take out with far less effort.

For clarification: The man was pleasant enough and did not appear to be drunk or high but rather was just really ignorant of canoeing and safety. Perhaps willfully ignorant, which is all too common with some people in so many ways.

 

[memaquay]

Ya, I think some kind of tactful approach to the kid and the lifejacket would probably be better received than a paddling lesson.

 

[Keeled Over]

I was climbing Tabletop Mt (herd path, no marked trail) while working on my 46. It was Nov., so not too much snow down low but at the summit had about 1' with a steady wind. I had summited and was working my back to my truck when I came across a guy and his son in sneakers and jeans, no gloves, no supplies, nothing. Kid was about 10, dad was 40 or so. They were on the mountain pushing through the snow to the summit. I asked what they were doing and he informed me they were also climbing Tabletop - but it was now noon with a long way to go. He asked me if I was backpacking, due to my DAYPACK being full. I explained I had equipment to get me through the nite if need be. I flat told him he should not be out there with a child and no experience or equipment. He explained they were "just out for a short one" which caused me to say, sarcastically I'm sure, that we were both climbing the same mountain.

The dad was huffy and turned to leave when I asked him this question. "What are you going to do if one of you gets injured and can't walk?" Blank look, so I continued by asking, "what if you break your ankle, and you are now sitting in the snow in cotton clothes for hours, while your son, also in cotton, goes back for help. Is he going to make it back to you? I explained that people die of hypothermia too often in the ADK's and that he was putting himself and his son in the perfect scenario to do just that.

I gave them some handwarmers - no gloves to put them in - and went on my way. I updated everyone I passed on the way down to keep an eye out for these two. Never made the paper so I assume they were ok.

 

[Alan Gage]

It's not a clear cut thing to me. I generally try to stay out of people's business, especially in today's climate, when an attempt to tell a yahoo to put a lifejacket on a six year old could well end up with a shouting match about "freedom" with the associated curses about the "libtard" interfering with god given rights, or some other kind of populist nonsense.

Wow, Canada sounds like an awful place. Can't imagine what that must be like.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I'd probably tell them I saw a ranger prowling around looking to hand out tickets and that they were at risk of getting one. You get to be the good guy by tipping them off.

Alan

 

[Art D]

I'd probably tell them I saw a ranger prowling around looking to hand out tickets and that they were at risk of getting one. You get to be the good guy by tipping them off.

Alan

Brilliant.

 

[ScottS]

I'm 0 for 15+ on telling people not to do stupid stuff in boats. But, I have a small perfect score on rescues.
Like Alan said, tell them there's a ranger nearby handing out expensive tickets.
Dumb people just don't know that they're dumb.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I'd probably tell them I saw a ranger prowling around looking to hand out tickets and that they were at risk of getting one. You get to be the good guy by tipping them off.

Alan

Brilliant.

Not to me, maybe for thee.

First, I would consider that just be a way for ME to avoid and deflect away from any sort of colloquy or possible confrontation with the individual. I'm not afraid of or concerned with that at all. I'm not focused on ME or my feelings in such situations.

Second, I've rarely seen anything like a "ranger" patrol boat on a lake I was paddling, and certainly not on a 300 acre pond.

People feel differently about these situations and have different experiences, opinions and viewpoints about them. I'm not sure there's a moral right or wrong. What about trying to resuscitate someone who collapses on the sidewalk near me. Would I try or walk away? I'm not sure.

It's been my experience that the vast majority of casual paddlers don't have any idea what the PFD laws are in their state. I know my home state's law, but even as an experienced paddler I have no idea what the current law is in, for example, my neighboring states of NY and MA.

 

[MrPoling]

I was floating the easy part of the Green River in North Carolina. At the bottom of a little rapid the canoe felt weird, a little heavy, like there was something stuck on it.

I turned to find a very drunk, very sunburned tuber clinging to the stern. Both his inner tubes were floating nearby. The first had been for him, the second had been for the beer cooler.

We paddled towards a sandy beach, but he let go in water over his head. He drank another cup or two of water before fetching shore.

We tossed him the cooler and his inner tube, and most of the beer. One tube was still floating on the other side of the river. After he got done coughing, and caught his breath he asked us to go fetch the other tube for him.

I looked at the tube for a second, but I turned back to him and said I was concerned he had too much to drink. I suggested he take out, or continue on without the beer cooler.

We kept a few beers as a rescue fee.

 

[Tsuga8]

I'd probably tell them I saw a ranger prowling around looking to hand out tickets and that they were at risk of getting one. You get to be the good guy by tipping them off.

Alan

This would be my temptation, because I don't like confrontation, especially with strangers. But, I've tried things along these lines a time or two, and have had it backfire. Options include anti-law enforcement/rebellious sentiment, or at best a temporary acceptance of a recommendation for the wrong reasons. Sure, today the ranger's around so junior wears a PFD. But next time when there's (perceived to be) no ranger, the PFD is left off and the dad is none the wiser about drowning risk. And maybe next time the water is 50F instead of 70F.

But in all honestly I struggle to summon the desire to interact with people - usually if they're out on the water I head the other way regardless of what they're doing or how they may be putting themselves at risk. Perhaps not the most upstanding behavior, but there are too many people proud to be combatively ignorant these days. Maybe a young kid in the boat would change my mind....

 

[kahel]

Dumb people just don't know that they're dumb.

some times, yes.


I am not a teacher ... I am not an instructor ...

but if it feels dangerous to me that people are putting themselves in danger (for whatever reason) it is my duty to make them aware of it and possibly tell them what, how and why it is better this way or that.

 

[alsg]

A couple of years ago I was out with my local canoe/kayak club on our usual Sunday run -- a Class I-II section of the Potomac known as the GW canal. You don't have to be a club member to paddle with us and it isn't unusual for new faces to show up. Sometimes they enjoy themselves and join the club. Sometimes not. But the new ones almost always take the friendly safety advice. PFDs for everyone is rule one.

On this particular Sunday, a kayaker showed up in a rec boat (no skirt). Nobody knew her but she claimed to be an experienced kayaker. She had a PFD that she was semi wearing -- she had her arms through it, but it was the kind with a central zipper down the front and it wasn't zipped and the entire thing was kind of loosely draped over her.

As we sat in an eddy before going into the first rapid, I casually brought my canoe up next to her and quietly suggested that she zip up the PFD because it was likely to come off if she capsized. She looked at me and said, "Well, I never, ever bother to zip it and I've never had a problem."

You can guess what happened next. Less than five minutes later, she hit a submerged branch, flipped her kayak, and did a wet exit. As she broke the surface, the PFD came up over her head, and almost totally off of her. She couldn't use her arms to swim so she pulled them out the rest of the way and the PFD floated away. Fortunately, it was close to shore and I and the other the club members towed her and her boat safely to shore and tracked down the PFD and assorted flotsam and jetsum that had come out of her boat's cockpit (except her camera which sank and was never found).

Instant karma like that rarely happens, but it did this day.

Oh, when we got back to the parking lot, she had a flat tire. And her spare was flat, too We called her a tow truck. She has never been back out with the club and we're all perfectly ok about that.