Mounting a Seat

[dougd]

I've been mulling this over for a while now and looking at a new build by Marc Ornstein on FB I noticed what looks like cleats to hold the seat in place. I know some of you have done this here. Other then the advantage of not drilling down through the gunwales what is the advantage of installing them that way? I've seen them in many boats, mostly Wenonah's and Bells but with metal and riveted through the hull. I won't mention the hack job on the brace cut on one canoe, you could skin a deer with it. I am thinking I might want to look into that style of installation vs through the gunwales which I always hate doing for some reason.

dougd

 

[recped]

I'm also interested in alternatives to the traditional hanger style. I have a new (to me) Royalex boat that has pedestals that I want to covert to a single seat.

 

[Jim Dodd]

There are definite advantages, to not hang seats from the gunnels ! I've always worried about the inwhales giving way .

Most strip built boats, I've seen, that don't Hang seat, glue blocks, to the inside of the hull, and attach seats on top of these.

The biggest drawback to that is, making sure it's where you want it ! Not easy to change later !

Pedestals are growing in popularity ! If you plan to do any Kneeling, a pedestal I'n my view, might be easier, and maybe safer .

I've tried some that Alan Gage made ! Though our bottom sides are quite different,( Mine being a lot bigger) I found them quite comfortable !
I know my seats were a lot heavier !

Give a pedestal a hard look !

Jim

 

[stripperguy]

Doug,
I often install cleats to hold my seats. If I'm feeling particularly paranoid, I add some glass over the cleat, but that's really overkill.

I think I posted some shear testing of a sample cleat on the forum...a representative mahogany cleat, stuck on a sample hull section with Cabosil thickened RAKA epoxy, yielded at over 300 lbs!!
And that was a cleat failure, not the epoxy joint. I included the load-deflection plot of the test, it's pretty interesting and information, but I would think that, it's my data!!
You can always make the cleats longer to allow for some seat adjustment, but the range of adjustment is limited by the hull shape. If you really need much adjustment, you'll have to make the cleat way deeper, for seat frame support in pointy boats.

I have used pedestal mounts for some of my latest builds.
I like the stiff support that the pedestals provide, but more so, I like the ease of moving fore-aft around the seat frame for loading/launching/landing, and for weight shifting for beaver dam crossings (I cross a LOT of dams)

I can post some pics of both styles, but not tonight.

 

[Guest]

Also, by not needing the gunnel to be strong enough for the considerable strain, the canoe can be built lighter. This area is where the most reinforcement layers usually are.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Doug I have Marc's email address if you want to write to him privately.. I tried to send you a PM but your mailbox is full..... Quota exceeded

 

[Alan Gage]

I've done cleats a few times and that was because the inner gunwale was too narrow. I really like pedestal seats with a narrow base for the different sitting/kneeling options but for simplicity and ease of install I don't think you can beat hanging them from the gunwales.

If you get the cleat height wrong you can still adjust seat height by adding shims or hanging it from the bottom of the cleats.

Alan

 

[Cruiser]

Hi Doug,

I used cleats for the seat, on my last build and I don't think I will go back to hanging from the gunnels.

The rationale for the build was to go light and not compromise strength or functionality or looks for that matter. Since weight was the focus, I evaluated each area of the build to figure the most effective way to accomplish the design goals. The area of "stuff that goes on after the hull is built" can really pack on the pounds ... specifically the gunnels, which I contend are routinely way overbuilt for purpose, as are the thwarts/yoke and decks.

I already pare down the gunnels, but I usually need to add pieces back to accommodate hanging the seats, so i couldn't reduce the gunnels down as much as I felt was reasonably possible. The solution .... drop hanging, move to cleats and make the gunnels closer to the reasonable minimum.

I did check out SDs shear test (TY SG for posting stuff I can use) and some other builds with cleats and they all seemed intent on larger rectangular blocks for cleats, which didn't fit in with the design goal of strength without too much weight. I wanted to distribute the weight over a larger hull section to reduce local loading, so I opted to create a 2 piece cleat, a sculpted base with thicker sculpted sections to receive the seat. The actual cleat and seat combo isn't too much different weight wise than hanging, but being able to reduce the gunnels saves an enormous amount of weight added to the hull. Additionally, using the helicoils allow using standard size bolts which are a lot easier to locate and purchase.

They finished looking like this

There is a bit more info on these in the build thread here (near the bottom): http://www.canoetripping.net/forums/forum/paddlecraft-construction/73582-freedom-solo-16/page5

 

[Iskweo]

If you have your seat height worked out then cleats are a good idea. Tremblay used them in their w/c canoes, screwed in from the outside before canvassing. My frieghter has them like that also. One really nice thing about them is you can make your seats adjustable ( slightly) for trim and balance. You can shim them too to give a slight forward tilt or any number of ideas that are just a pain if they hang from the inwales.

Decent epoxy will give all the shear strength you want and if it still makes you fret then put in a centre support for the seat. That will hold your keester meester.

I absolutely love love love that seat with the full side to side lacing. Great idea that I am going to covet for myself.

Christine

 

[Jim Dodd]

If going the Cleat route, I'd be tempted to set them on the low side, as I would hanging from the Gunnels ! It's easier to Shim Up a seat, than take it down.

Also if a seat IS too low, a cushion would add comfort and height, at the same time ! My $.02 worth.

Jim

 

[gumpus]

The way that Swift is mounting their carbon seats is pretty slick. They offered to do a custom installation on an older Blackhawk of mine but I decided to keep it stock.
https://www.swiftcanoe.com/carbon-components

 

[stripperguy]

The way that Swift is mounting their carbon seats is pretty slick. They offered to do a custom installation on an older Blackhawk of mine but I decided to keep it stock.
https://www.swiftcanoe.com/carbon-components

Huh, would you look at that! Kinda like my Kite build from 5 years ago...Oh well, I figured those production guys would catch up eventually.

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[stripperguy]

For Doug,

Here's a few pics of one of my pedestals. I can easily fit one or both feet under the seat. I sometimes put a leg on each side of a single pedestal, for comfortable :kneel and heel" paddling.
Seat is adjustable, held in place by 3M Dual Lock, which also releases to prevent entanglement.

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[stripperguy]

And wait, here's some detail pics of my mahogany cleats...

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[dougd]

Marc responded to my FB comment so I'm all good. Thanks for the heads up on the mailbox. Time to do some spring cleaning!

 

[dogbrain]

That's funny, I removed the pedestal seat in favor of one hung from the gunwales on my Kite. My pedestal seat is out of a Wenonah solo, and kneeling didn't work with mine. I have to kneel part of the time when I paddle because it relieves strain on the lower back, plus it's nice when going through a rapid. When I kneel in a canoe, my feet are together and the pedestal keeps them apart, which is next to impossible and really uncomfortable.

Mark

 

[stripperguy]

Mark,
Look at the 1st pic in my post #13 above...rather than use a production pedestal that doesn't work for you, just whip up something that will suit your body needs.

 

[gumpus]

I just wanted to follow up and mention that Swift is now selling carbon components and Kevlar "side pods" which could offer some short cuts to Doug or recped or whoever. I admire you DIYers but premade side pods seem pretty tempting. Check out some of the tasty carbon items on their parts list.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f1b4eb_a7fa1a6b4ff540fdbe3f25ba3308faae.pdf