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Keewaydin 15 Pack boat

Yes,the Esquif Echo is truly a sweet boat-I owned a beautiful green one for a while. I was(for me) the nicest manovering freestyle type boat I ever paddled. Well built too,but not real fast,too low a freeboard for rough or moving water,and weighed a ton. I miss it,but it was just too limited. I replaced it with a Mohawk Solo 13 which is ugly,not quite as sweet a handler,but lighter and more versitle. still, miss you "Re-Pete".
Turtle
 
No need to quit Gavia unless you have soft water and better things to do..

Thanks. I meant this thread. It might be a good example of speaking up when just listening would have been better.
I do have better things to do - listen and think before speaking. :)

There's also soft water here, but the wind is around 40 mph.
 
Lucky guy! We've over two feet of ice on the lake, with the same wind. Great situation for ponticficating by the fire if the wood holds out but not for much else! I've a mostly complete listing of traditional solo and pack canoe specs if anyone is interested; email charliewilson77@gmail for an electronic copy.
 
Turtle I prefer the Mohawk Solo 14. :rolleyes: Not the fastest, most nimble, or lightest. But hard to beat the price performance ratio. $265.00 as a second direct from the factory in 1994. Recently had to use Keeleasy to protect the worn out bow. Any one ever paddle the Class Five Dolphin solo? It just might be the the new price performance champ. Class Five bought the Mohawk fiberglass molds. Not every one can afford a infused Kevlar/carbon boat. All though I do like to drool over them. So thanks for posting the picks and sharing Icedragonmx. If your water is still solid we have plenty of the soft kind here in central FL. Would love to see the Keewaydin in person. just make sure to bring plenty of rags to wipe off the drool.

Have been enjoying my used Bell Black Gold Wildfire. Replaced the wood gunnels with gunnels that I made myself. It only took almost thirty years for me to own a light weight solo. Paddled a Curtis Kevlar canoe in 1986 at Katies when a rep came to stay the winter. So it only took me 28 years to go light weight. :p
 
I just prefer short,narrower boats. Thanks to my new pond bubbler system my pond was open enough to paddle on yesterday-yea! One month earlier than normal. Sure felt good.
Turtle
 
Having recently received two profanity laced emails from friends suggesting I attempt a modicum of amelioration......

Serenade FlashFire are roughly similar canoes; both ~13' long and 28+"wide. being smallish they minimize surface area and skin friction, and so accelerate quickly; always a rush. Flash might be the faster because it's rocker removes more drag creating surface area, but lots of finicky little factors affect the final forward speed. We could compare tracking and maneuvering performance if a skilled builder installed similar kneeling seats in the two.

While Length/ width ratio, Flash 6, Ser 5.6, indicates Flash will be the better tracker, Serenade may track better than Flash, due to it's V bottom which increases the depth of the waterline length, width depth "block". Comparison of the similar hulls width/length ratio, isn't enough data, we need the full monty block co-efficient to quantify tracking due to significant differences in bottom shapes.

Serenade's differential rocker further improves it's tracking in so far as the skegged stern resists yaw occasioned by improper forward stroke technique; angling the paddleshaft across the rail or carrying the blade aft of the thigh/body. Flash's tumblehome improves tracking by allowing paddlers to keep the shaft hand closer to the keel line and especially for smaller paddlers, use a vertical shaft orientation.

Maneuvering canoes addresses skidded turns, drawing or prying the leading stem, usually the bow, to one side and allowing the trailing stem to skid away. We usually heel to enhance that skid by lifting the skidding stem. Flash's increased rocker, especially in the stern, allows lifting the stems higher as does the tumblehome, which allows ~10dg more heel to further increase stem lift. Flash will turn more tightly.

We can heel either direction. Bow rocker is important with inside skids, allowing the bow to draw to the more stable bracing draw but don't turn as tightly as outside heeled maneuvers because the latter carve the bow into the turn and increase skidding momentum. Serenade's bottom V presents a vertical composite wall to inside heeled skids and limits rotation; strongly suggesting heeling away from the brace so the outside V presents a planing stern surface to the water. The elliptical hull is more neutral, the V hull exhibiting more "personality" in its handling characteristic.

Stability and seakindliness are a function of width and chines. Flash's softer chines allow waves to slip under the hull more easily but width is narrower; they narrow knee spacing a little, reducing knee spread and stability for those of average or greater thigh length. Serenade, with 1.5 in wider waterline width and harder chines will probably overcome the V bottoms inherent tendency to switch flats and seem the more stable of the two?

So there's the why, bon chance!
 
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Thanks, Charlie! That's a great explanation of the differences. One little detail: the Serenade has Bell-like tumblehome.
When I first saw it I thought Mad River had simply adapted a WildFire to its philosophy.
What I like about the Serenade are its forward responsiveness, generally good maneuverability combined with ease of tracking, lack of "twitchiness" that I find quite pronounced in the FlashFire, and a nice progression toward high secondary stability. It could be improved with a shallow arch bottom - and of course a correct canoe seat - but for its purposes I wouldn't increase the stern rocker. I already have a freestyle boat.

Wasn't this thread about something else?
 
Gavia;

The initial press release claimed tumblehome in Serenade, but MRC's web site neither shows nor mentions tumblehome. Maybe it's kinda like ORC's Bell DragonFly, which had tumblehome until it didn't exist at all?? Who knows? Certainly tumblehome would improve pack canoe use, allowing a more vertical shaft for those sitting low with double blades.
 
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Charlie what was the first boat that exhibited the shouldered tumblehome?

I know Curtis DragonFly and Nomad had it early nineties prior to any Fire but not sure if it appeared on Bell boats around the same time.
 
Shouldered Tumblehome

Shouldered Tumblehome

First composite use of tumblehome was on some of Bob Demoret's Wabash Valley solos, which became Bells. Yost used the bubble in all the Sawyer and Curtis tumblehomed boats. Gene Jensen and Dave Kruger came up with their own "wing" shapes.

Yost's shouldered tumblehome first appeared in the Curtis DragonFly and Vagabond in 1982, arriving at Bell a decade later on WildFire and FlashFire. Mike Galt first copied the shoulder on his Lotus Caper, but Jim Henry, NRC, and Steve Scarborough, Dagger, Phil Sigglekow, BlackHawk, and Mohawk used similar shaping on canoes in the mid to late 90s.

John Winters used a unique slab side tumblehome in the Swift Osprey which Yost borrowed from for Magic's "Flatiron" sides.

The current Swift tumblehomed hulls, also Yost designs, revert to an adjusted bubble sidwall, primarily to maintain trade dress with Swift's Prospector series.
 
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Cflcanoe- you would be welcome to take it for a spin if the waters are ever going to be "soft" here. I have been getting pictures from Vancouver Island with lots of open areas to play in as well. I think we are still dealing with 2+ feet of ice here and will have a bit of a wait yet. Can't wait to get out!

Charlie Wilson- If I could focus all your experience on just this one canoe for a second, I would love to hear your opinion on the Keewaydin 15 pack boat as a wilderness tripper for a big 230# guy and a max of 120# of gear. Will it sit low in the water with that type of weight? I will be out on some larger lakes as well as the tight little swamp creeks so I was looking for a multi purpose do it all with one, type of solo canoe. Will it still move fairly easy with that much weight in it? Normal will be 55# in gear for the weekend adventure stuff. Thanks!

Hope that I will be in the water in less than a month and will be posting more pictures and trip reports then with the new Swift!
 
Icedragonmx the Kee 15 is performance rated at top of 290lbs. That said I think if you put 350 in it you would not sink. The industry standard capacity of 6 inch freeboard is 420 lbs.

The question I have is as your normal paddling will be 55 lbs of gear is that on big lakes or is your big load going to be on big lakes?

I had a similarly sized Merlin II with dog for a weekend rendezvous paddle where we brought everything and the boat was OK running above 300 lbs..not shipping water in two foot breakers on a lake in Quebec.. some two mile crossing. But handling was certainly not sprightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcbO3hl3_F0
 
Icedragonmx the Kee 15 is performance rated at top of 290lbs. That said I think if you put 350 in it you would not sink. The industry standard capacity of 6 inch freeboard is 420 lbs.

The question I have is as your normal paddling will be 55 lbs of gear is that on big lakes or is your big load going to be on big lakes?

I had a similarly sized Merlin II with dog for a weekend rendezvous paddle where we brought everything and the boat was OK running above 300 lbs..not shipping water in two foot breakers on a lake in Quebec.. some two mile crossing. But handling was certainly not sprightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcbO3hl3_F0

Thank you for the feedback yellowcanoe! I was just worried about how much performance would be lost when I loaded it above the rated load. Most of the extra weight would be for extra toys/gear outside of the tent/food stuff and would be used in the smaller lakes north of Kenora. Lots of jumps from lake to lake and I was hoping for a fast efficient paddle speed with the extra weight in. Not sure how my canoe rates for the speed/efficiency. I am using most of the load rating just for me regardless of gear! :) Unsure of the youtube link?
 
IDMX;

The Kee 15 is the next to last in Yost's solo tripper series and includes his stepped bow rocker that improves forward speed It is quite stable for average to large paddlers kneeling, tracks well and is nicely maneuverable. The differential rocker and tumblehome seem ideal for pack conversion. Lowering the paddling station increases stability and seaworthyness for extra large paddlers and the tumblehome allows a fairly vertical paddleshaft.

The displacement data for Bells Merlin II, a slightly slimmer hull, achieved by measuring water into the hull, indicates 340# lbs displacement at 4" of draft. Let's say the Kee 15 will take 360# to draw 4". You should be golden! We'll be doing real displacement data on the Swift's when the water softens and warms a little.

For paddling a pack canoe all day, consider an all carbon paddle; Werner, Onno, Epic or AT. The weight helps and the foam cored blades float the paddle with vertical shaft. I like bent shafts to reduce wrist fatigue.

bon chance
 
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never mind my april fool joke. The you tube vid was not supposed to be here! Copy and paste is sometimes not my friend. My edit function is on the fritz.
 
IDMX;

The Kee 15 is the next to last in Yost's solo tripper series and includes his stepped bow rocker that improves forward speed It is quite stable for average to large paddlers kneeling, tracks well and is nicely maneuverable. The differential rocker and tumblehome seem ideal for pack conversion. Lowering the paddling station increases stability and seaworthyness for extra large paddlers and the tumblehome allows a fairly vertical paddleshaft.

The displacement data for Bells Merlin II, a slightly slimmer hull, achieved by measuring water into the hull, indicates 340# lbs displacement at 4" of draft. Let's say the Kee 15 will take 350# to draw 4". You should be golden! We'll be doing real displacement data on the Swift's when the water softens and warms a little.

For paddling a pack canoe all day, consider an all carbon paddle; Werner, Onno, Epic or AT. The weight helps and the foam cored blades float the paddle with vertical shaft. I like bent shafts to reduce wrist fatigue.

bon chance

That sounds like good news for me! Was worried I may have been asking too much of my canoe with the extra weight. That will only be when I bring all the extra toys so the regular 55# in gear will be perfect for smaller trips up to 5 days. I alway liked sitting on the bottom when the waves got too big! Now I can be comfy too doing that.

I have a Bending Branches Navigator and a Sunburst ST as paddle choices for right now. I am hoping both will be good enough for the longer trips at this point. Need to update to a lighter tent/sleeping bag etc. first before upgrading too much other gear. Should be a good first year regardless in the new canoe.


Yellowcanoe- Still a great video for April 1st :)
 
Gavia;

The initial press release claimed tumblehome in Serenade, but MRC's web site neither shows nor mentions tumblehome. Maybe it's kinda like ORC's Bell DragonFly, which had tumblehome until it didn't exist at all?? Who knows? Certainly tumblehome would improve pack canoe use, allowing a more vertical shaft for those sitting low with double blades.

In the flesh (so to speak) the Serenade's tumblehome is very similar to Bell's, just with a bit sharper angles.
 
I am really interested in a handling/tracking comparison with kneeling seat. Kee 15 vs hemlock Perigrine,Kee 14 vs Hemlock Kestrel.
"keep your paddle wet",Turtle
 
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