Help me polish this turd :)

[Oldtyme]

Hello and thanks for having me. 1st post here.

Background: Recreational kayaker for 2 years. Nothing but lakes & slow rivers. Then I got a dog & found we didn't fit in the kayak. So canoe was the next option.
In my haste I found a ,what I thought, was a great deal. Old Town Rogue River 154. Canoe, tail-gate extender, 2 new bass-pro paddles & 2 new cushions / PFD & homemade stands for $275. Not a terrible deal. I would of needed the extender anyways, the boat is in good condition sans the missing hatch covers.
I have taken it out a few times. On the lakes it handles like a pig. It moves fine, but is indeed a workout. It is very stable & I have no fear of tipping even with dog movement. On the river run I took it was much nicer. Just float & steer clear of obstacles. I had no fear of bouncing off branches or narrow log jams as this thing is a tank. (another plus). The bad is it is HEAVY! Hard to manage out of the water but I have.
My goal at the moment....is polish up the Old Town and save my milk money for a lighter canoe made for easier, faster paddling.

Here is where you guys come in. I would like to turn my 154 into a Discovery 15. (see attached pics)
I would like to replace the plastic seats front & back with DIY webbed seats. Lose the middle console and well..... again. This is where I need help.
I have taken one side loose of the console & it went "Boing !!" so support will be needed in the middle. Not much but some. Am I crazy to want trace the console bottom and have a piece of pipe formed into a U-shape to take it's place (basically leaving the middle of the boat open). I "think" this would work and would leave it open to deal with a moving dog. OR should I just go with a more traditional yoke?
Another question: The steel rod inside that sits in the keel molding on these boats. Just how important is that? Will it fold like a taco without it? Hard to believe a boat this heavy and formed from poly would need this to maintain it's shape. If it's important I could figure out something I guess. Just trying to shave any weight I can off this thing without compromising the boat.

Thanks in advance for any help. I am definitely hooked & suppose I made the same mistake many make in first-time buying. I don't hate the Old Town but already looking ahead to the next.

 

[dougd]

As the owner and many miles on the hull of my Disco 158 the first thing I did was to take out the rotomold seats. Replacing them is easy enough and new seats can be bought from Ed's Canoe:

https://www.edscanoe.com/canoeseats.html

Forget about the pipe idea and go with a traditional carry thwart or a regular thwart. As far as that support down the middle I think you could take it out, I did on a Pamlico tandem kayak and had no problems as the layup of the hull is stiff enough. Again, Ed's for a thwart.

Like my Disco shaving off whatever weight you can helps but the nature of the beast is it's still a heavy arsed bugger. I wish you luck and I'm sure others will chime in.

dougd

 

[Oldtyme]

OK. I agree on the center thwart idea. (still learning the lingo) Would look more traditional and not so ghetto.
Wouldn't making seats be a cheaper option? I have a $50 gift card to spend at Home Depot. That would cover the wood & hardware. Couldn't I make the thwart as well?

Yes, the goal is to shave a little fat off this pig and I believe it would make it look ten times nicer as well. I could always get a small trolling motor for times I want to fish over paddle.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Welcome aboard !

I'm thinking you should leave the pipe in place.
It's there to stiffen the bottom.
Poly boats Oil Can just sitting upside down on a rack.

Flotation is another concern ! If those seats have molded compartments. They may be best left alone.
Seats from Ed's won't add flotation.

​​​​​​​Jim

 

[dougd]

Brian, Yes, you can make your own seats if you're willing to spend the time doing it and the tools. I do make my own gunwales and thwarts but just buy seats vs making them. I don't think 50$ is going to come close to what you'd spend in building your own. Just my 02 worth. From the pics you posted its a flat back so a small motor would be great to have. Several folks here do that with strippers they have built or are building. You have come to a good place for feedback.

 

[goonstroke]

If you add diagonal braces to a center seat it can be essentially as stiff as a center thwart/yoke. That's what the Disco 15 in the picture has. Old town calls those "bracket support braces" (https://oldtowncanoe.johnsonoutdoors.com/parts/hardware/seat-hardware?id=11916). You could probably also make your own.

For a cost-effective and slightly ghetto thwart, scrounge one or two old hockey sticks.

 

[pblanc]

The Rogue River and Discovery are very different beasts. The Discovery canoes are roto-molded, three-layer polyethylene. This construction method has a foam core. The foam core in the hull provides for positive buoyancy and rigidity.

The Rogue River is thermo-formed, single-layer (solid) polyethylene. There is no foam core. With this type of construction method, the hull is much thinner and less rigid for a canoe of any size that is not prohibitively heavy. Also, with single-layer poly, there is no inherent positive buoyancy to the hull.

With a three-layer poly boat like the Disco, you can remove the roto-molded seats and replace them with whatever and you will still have a boat that is sufficiently rigid to paddle, and will not sink. With your canoe you cannot. Without some type of "endoskeleton" the bottom of that canoe is going to be very flimsy. Paddling it will be about as easy as paddling a large, heavy duty trash bag. Also, it may sink.

Those ugly seats and center console are there for a reason. Very often, they contain foam or sealed air spaces that provide buoyancy. They also have 'footers" that go down to the hull bottom and stiffen it. Take a look at some of the old Coleman canoes which were also single-layer poly construction. These boats had a tubular aluminum keelson running down the length of the inside hull bottom, and tubular aluminum footers extending down to the keelson from the center thwart and seat frames.

Your best bet is to sell this and buy a different boat. If you don't want to do this, you may be able to ditch the center console and seats but yes, you will need to fashion some type of footers to stiffen the hull bottom. And you will very likely need to also add supplemental flotation so that you do not have a "sinker".

 

[memaquay]

Everything pblanc said is true, probably not what you want to hear though. That bottom bar is essential, especially if you put a little motor on it. Without that bar, the speed of a motor would cause the hull to oilcan immensely.

 

[Oldtyme]

Thank you guys. That's why I'm glad I asked before doing anything. So the seats & console not only give strength to the sides of the canoes, but strengthen the bottom as well. Yes, the front & back seats are screwed into the keel pole. The middle console is just over it & not attached. Could the console really provide buoyancy? The space that may be sealed isnt much.
Anyways. I wanted to thank everyone for their help. I put it on the Marketplace. Will see if it sells. If not then I will think about thinking about making changes. I could always add footers to the rod as suggested. They did it on this OT I found.

 

[pblanc]

I don't see any evidence of any supplemental flotation in the form of tanks or foam blocks in the stems of the hull so there must be something in either the seats or the console or both to provide positive buoyancy. If you don't see sealed air spaces or foam in the console, it may be in the seats. The footer on the center console is there basically to keep the center of the hull bottom from flexing up.

If you are stuck with the boat, you might be able to ditch the console and replace it with one or two thwarts, fashioning a pair of diagonal braces extending down to the keelson pole from the center thwart and simply pad out the existing seats with minicell foam or commercially available seat pads. Additional flotation could be achieved by installing a small bow air bag or foam block in front of the bow seat.

 

[Oldtyme]

Thanks I am probably just going to end up selling this. Sounds like I should leave it the way they designed it and buy something different. I have got a couple nibbles already.
i was going to start a new post but will ask here. Are all stable boats going to be slow? I would like something in between. Should I sell this and find a $100 canoe to use until I find something better? I have a feeling come winter there will be some great deals. Any advice on what I am actually looking for? Or should be looking for. ?

 

[memaquay]

Are all stable boats going to be slow?

That's a really big question that could involve many pages of responses, lol. There are a wide variety of hull shapes, and terms like primary stability and secondary stability are commonly thrown around by canoeists. In my opinion, for most canoes stability is more a factor of the experience of the person paddling it. Once you have spent many hours paddling, most hulls will feel solid.

Are you stuck on a square stern? If your desire is to paddle, as opposed to motoring, try to find one with in the normal double pointer canoe form. In very general terms, and I mean generally, a canoe that is 16 feet long, 36 inches wide at the midpoint, and 13 to 14 inches deep at the midpoint should be stable enough. Turn it around so you paddle from the bow seat, and if necessary, lower the seats some, and you will feel snug as a bug in a rug.

 

[Oldtyme]

Thanks Memaquy: You answered exactly what I was wanting to know. Those specs sound almost identical to the OT Discovery 158. I say that model because there is one a couple hours away for $150. Minor damage which he said doesnt go all the way through. (see pic)
Question: Will the difference in narrowness make that much of a difference? Will it paddle easier? I've read some say it's "slow" also but nobody is ever happy.
I only got a flat back because it was there. If I wanted to troll I would take my boat boat out. Canoes are for rowing.
Someone should be coming after my canoe tonight (I hope) if not several others are behind him. I'm kind of shocked at how many were interested in mine. It's not for me for sure.
Think the Discovery would be a good step up? Or should I wait?

 

[Oldtyme]

OK. The beast is gone. I was reading an old thread I found here on the 158. Do I want to avoid poly canoes all together? I know the discovery is 80 lbs but after 120 it's getting better : )
Should I just buy a cheap-o canoe to hold me over until winter when I could find a super-deal? (PS. Im not made of money. Not rich or even close to having $1000 to spend on a canoe, so it's "best for my budget" at this time)

 

[goonstroke]

For an entry level boat, poly canoes are not that bad. Just don't buy one with a hole in it, poly is very hard to patch ("bonds most plastics" => doesn't stick to polyethelene).

If you don't do rocky rivers, you might also consider aluminum. I sometimes see old aluminum canoes on Craigslist that are barely more expensive than scrap.

 

[Oldtyme]

Yeah. The one I posted does have a small crack at the end. Looks minor but if it's not repairable it's enough. Ill keep looking.

 

[memaquay]

ya I'd wonder how that damage happened. I have a disco one foot longer than that it was a good beating around canoe. very hard to repair but very difficult to destroy. have a close look at it. for a 150 bucks it might be ok.

 

[Mrindy]

That crack doesnt look terrible and is not in a critical spot, like say the floor. $150 is as cheap as those go around here. Just check the middle to make sure it hasnt perma- oil canned. Thats a great entry level canoe you could paddle solo or tandem. Sure, a used royalex canoe like an old town Penobscot or a royalex or tuffweave Wenonah would be better, but those typically run minimum $500+ in these parts. Just getting out on the water is what counts!

 

[Oldtyme]

I agree Mema: I'm wondering how that crack happened to begin with. Must of be a substantial hit to cause it.
I have $325 in my pocket right meow. I know that's not much but I will be scouring the for-sale sites in the next few days. I did find a Wenonah Solo for like $350. Was gone in minutes (but I don't think I would want a solo even as good of a deal as it was) There IS a Charles River Royalex OT (he says its Royalex) 158 for $550 but I m a little short right now. Maybe I'll sell a kidney. That could be the last canoe I would ever have to buy right? : )
I'm back even right now with my canoe buying adventures. So I'm not losing but learning.

 

[memaquay]

If the Charles river OT is indeed royalex, and if it is in good shape, 550 is not a bad buy. Royalex canoes are not available from OT anymore, so if the hull weighs 80 pounds, it is poly. If it comes in around 65, it is royalex.

As an offshoot, when I first came to Northern Ontario, many moons ago, I was looking for a canoe. Someone had donated a bunch of old aluminium canoes to the school, and the worst ones were put up for silent auction. I was skint then, had no money at all, but put in my bid. Then I went on a two week canoe trip with the school club. When I got back, I found out that the powers that be had opened the bids so that the shop teachers could bid one dollar more and take them all. I was somewhat perturbed, just having given two weeks of my time, and 25 pounds to shepherd 25 kids through the wilds. However, I still didn't have a canoe, and I was still broke. So I went to the library and enquired about books about canoe building, and ended up borrowing the classic "Canoecraft" book by Ted Moore. I was taken over by the idea of building my own canoe. It took me about a year, but I did finally build my own canoe. 30 years later, I have probably built around 30 or more.

What I am trying to say is if you can access wood for free, or very cheap prices, you could probably build your own canoe for about 500 bucks. The major expense is the resins, but they seem to be a lot cheaper in the US than in Canada. Just a thought. In the meantime, keep scouring the want ads, lol.