Following wind, waves, and canoe design. Where to next?

[Steve in Idaho]

I'm not sure if this is a solo canoe question or a paddling technique question, so I'll put it here. If it turns out to be one or the other, Glenn, please move it accordingly.

I am fortunate that I have a large lake 15 minutes from home. I paddle there often, sometimes to fish, sometimes to photograph wildlife, and sometimes just for the exercise and Solitude. I always base my decision of which and where partly on the wind forecast. My normal plan (that doesn't always pan out) is to have a tailwind on the return trip (I assume "no wind" is not an option) not because it's easier, but because it's quicker.

With my current collection of canoes, I have little trouble going into the wind or across the wind if I have to. It's the downwind run that bothers me most. I'm not talking about a breeze and a little chop. I'm talking about a stiff wind with waves built over a long fetch, fighting the boat's intention to broach. There are often times that I rate the difficulty right up with class 2+ whitewater (because I didn't end may day before the usual afternoon blow). What a way to end a long day!

Both of my faster solos (the Solitude and the Moccasin) can be a handful in those conditions. The Solitude is better in those conditions than the Moccasin, but its very low stern shear sometimes makes me wonder how close I am to shipping water back there. One way I deal with the issue is to take the Wildfire, but if the forecast is wrong and I end up with headwind or the famous Idaho swirling wind, I will wish I brought the Solitude.

So here's the question...
What designs are at least as fast and capacious as these two 15.5' solos, still track well, aren't bad in a headwind or sidewind, but don't tend to broach on a long downwind run?

Or am I stuck with a software issue?

 

[dramey]

You might consider getting a splash cover. I bought one from Red Leaf Designs. The splash covers helps miitgate the wind and with any waves that may splash over.

 

[Canoe 1885]

I believe wind from the behind or beam is a common concern. No one want to have their canoe broach or spin into the wind. I live in Bend Oregon and fight wind in both large lakes and rivers often as well. First thought. From AI.
For downwind paddling, asymmetrical canoes are generally superior because they track better in following seas and slice through waves efficiently. In contrast, symmetrical canoes offer better maneuverability and predictability, but can be more prone to getting pushed around by the stern and broaching in large, following waves.
I currently have many solo and two person tripping canoes. I find the above AI statement to be correct. Further you can have a symmetrical canoe with asymmetrical rocker. Example Northstar Phoenix. A well regarded river canoe design, slightly different in water line length and width, with asymmetrical rocker vs you wildfire which has symmetrical rocker. Both examples of canoes more focused on rough water and turning rather then tracking/ primary stability/ speed. Only issue their beam and bottom shape are not considered “fishing canoes”. I have a Bell Merlin II , more the size of your solitude & moccasin, which handles well in waves and downwind. Even a chestnut prospector unloaded is a pain due to high shear lines in the wind. A chestnut pal wood/ canvas solo fishing/ pleasure cruising canoe, in the wind, paddled solo is a favorite of mine as well. Yep canoe designs are best when matched to current condition. A new canoe is always the best answer!
I also find paddle design choice can make a big difference. My recommendation for winds is a light freestyle paddle. Short blade length/ with a wide blade. Great for making quick small changes. Long bladed paddles in the wind can be problematic due to their long blades.
Lastly I find altering my course direction from a straight line to placing the wind at different angles to my back ( like a zig zag pattern ) helps if possible. Wind the four letter word most hated by canoest.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

You might consider getting a splash cover. I bought one from Red Leaf Designs. The splash covers helps miitgate the wind and with any waves that may splash over.

I have one for the bow that came with the canoe. It won't fit the stern, since it's a swedeform hull. Yes, I should get one for that.

A new canoe is always the best answer!

That's kinda where I'm going with this.

Lastly I find altering my course direction from a straight line to placing the wind at different angles to my back ( like a zig zag pattern ) helps if possible.

That works for me, but it's a fight still to keep from broaching. It does force me into a sprint, so that's both bad and good.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I have a Bell Merlin II , more the size of your solitude & moccasin, which handles well in waves and downwind.

That's the kind of enabling comment I'm looking for.
It's kind of embarrassing... I've now passed up a chance to own a Merlin II twice. Now I'm in the mode of watching for another (and with recently announced competition), or maybe a Phoenix.

What I really want to know is if either or something else would make the Solitude irrelevant.

 

[Canoe 1885]

One other consideration is seat heigh and kneeling vs sitting. In both my Magic and Merlin II, I played around with seat drops from stock kneeling and stock sitting drops to custom version to test paddling traits. 3” sitting, 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 kneeling, etc. Interesting stability changes going from high center of gravity of kneeling to lower CG of sitting. Both in bow/ stern level and side to side stability. Going down wind moving weight to the rear of the canoe, lower seat height - lower CG, seems to lighten up the bow and skeg the stern. which has very positive effect going down wind. It feels like the stern is deeper in the water and does not want to slide out or cause the canoe to broach. Almost like it trying to surf the wave. These changes are related to 15+ wind effects on these two canoes on large lakes with wind chop.

 

[Alan Gage]

I normally paddle go straight solo canoes in the 16' range and other than when I used to paddle 18' 6" J-boats (which I found to be a nightmare in following winds) I've never really had an issue. Wind is common here in Iowa and there usually isn't much option to avoid it due to the landscape. I've encountered plenty of tail winds when tripping too. I will admit that for most day paddles on windy days I would choose the river to avoid the wind as much as possible.

Moving the seat (or weight) further back seems to help keep the bow pointing downwind (and I think it helped leverage as well) and often times I'll find myself doing more of a 1/2 draw stroke on one side to keep things going straight rather than a true forward stroke.

Most of my experience in these situations is with a Bell Magic and my Bloodvein.

Alan

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I had a big tailwind going downriver one day in the Sojourn. That was a gas. No significant waves to contend with going with the swift current. All I had to do was rudder, and not much of that.

I think it's possible, maybe probable that I'm not shifting weight back enough when I encounter this on the lake. Rockered canoes probably have spoiled me. I'm unsure about how high my arrow straight 14" stern is riding in the Solitude with the waves overtaking me already, and looking back isn't an option. I think I'll point a GoPro back there next time I'm running from the wind. I know I'll be fine increasing weight more in the stern of the Moccasin, so I'll get more serious about that next time.

You guys are taking the fun out of canoe searching.

 

[memaquay]

Even canoes with sliding seats don't often slide far enough back for me. I really enjoy paddling with a tailwind. On my current Raven, I placed the front of the seat 10 inches aft of centre, which seems to be the sweet spot for avoiding broaching. Plus, the Raven has a lot of rocker, which makes corrections strokes work quickly. I believe I remember J. Winters saying that his asymmetrical solos had to squat a bit in the back to assist with tracking, so I took him at his word for seat placement.

 

[lowangle al]

When paddling in a tail wind, where there is a lot of fetch, you not only have to worry about the wind pushing your stern around but I believe the water is also being pushed downwind and has to be delt with like it's a current. It has more effect on the boat then the wind. The wind is easier to deal with, with a bow light trim your boat should weathervane downwind. When it doesn't weathervane downwind I think it is the moving water that wants to push your stern around. Sometimes there is no trim option that will solve the problem. If your stern is too heavy the moving water will cause you to broach, if it is too light the wind will do it.

Asymmetrical boats where the stern is lower than the bow will be more likely to take on water. Asymmetrical boats that have more rocker in the bow than the stern will also be more likely to be pushed around. I think the best boat in a trailing wind is symmetrical with high enough stems to keep water out and a lot of rocker to minimize the effect of the moving water.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

When paddling in a tail wind, where there is a lot of fetch, you not only have to worry about the wind pushing your stern around but I believe the water is also being pushed downwind and has to be delt with like it's a current. It has more effect on the boat then the wind. The wind is easier to deal with, with a bow light trim your boat should weathervane downwind. When it doesn't weathervane downwind I think it is the moving water that wants to push your stern around. Sometimes there is no trim option that will solve the problem. If your stern is too heavy the moving water will cause you to broach, if it is too light the wind will do it.

Asymmetrical boats where the stern is lower than the bow will be more likely to take on water. Asymmetrical boats that have more rocker in the bow than the stern will also be more likely to be pushed around. I think the best boat in a trailing wind is symmetrical with high enough stems to keep water out and a lot of rocker to minimize the effect of the moving water.

This is what I think I'm feeling. I'm not the strongest paddler, and I see the waves passing under me. If I could go a little faster (as in, approaching theoretical hull speed) I could be riding the waves instead of fighting them. Maybe a longer and faster canoe would help, but maybe my motor isn't big enough to take advantage of that, and it would kind of defeat my purpose for being out there most of the time.

I keep hoping I can increase my stamina to maintain my sprint, but age is making that less of a reality. As time progresses, it seems I'm going to rely more on the Wildfire for the very reasons you stated. I am thinking seriously though of similar hulls a foot longer, if they exist.

 

[Alan Gage]

This is what I think I'm feeling. I'm not the strongest paddler, and I see the waves passing under me. If I could go a little faster (as in, approaching theoretical hull speed) I could be riding the waves instead of fighting them. Maybe a longer and faster canoe would help, but maybe my motor isn't big enough to take advantage of that, and it would kind of defeat my purpose for being out there most of the time.

I don't think that is realistically achievable. About the only way to not be passed by waves is to surf the waves and, while fun, is much scarier than getting passed by the waves. Guys in surf skis do this and in that context it's a blast. Not something I'd want to do in a tripping canoe though and it would take a lot of effort. The wave spacing we see on normal sized lakes is often too short for reasonable surfing. When you find a wave surface to surf your bow will often nearly be buried in the wave ahead of you.

I think downwind current is minimal to the point of not being an issue. Any wind driven current must be pretty small and at the speeds we're traveling downwind (4 mph plus even if not paddling hard) then we would be going considerably faster than the current so it shouldn't be pushing the stern around. It's hard to back ferry when you're traveling faster than the river current.

Alan

 

[Steve in Idaho]

When you find a wave surface to surf your bow will often nearly be buried in the wave ahead of you.

Yeah, as proven when surfing standing waves, I suppose.

Any wind driven current must be pretty small and at the speeds we're traveling downwind (4 mph plus even if not paddling hard) then we would be going considerably faster than the current so it shouldn't be pushing the stern around.

It shouldn't be, but it is. But I think maybe it's not current as we tend to think of it. Wave energy is weird, and it's not like a constant flow.

 

[Pseudonym]

Open water waves are very different than standing waves in river. In open water, like an ocean or lake, I think of waves as a transfer of energy up and down (oscillation) and not water being pushed forward like a current. Within a lake, if the waves were pushed forward like a current, then the water would need to eddy back around somewhere else in the lake, and that's not really how it works. If you are surfing the face of a wave on a lake, or ocean, you're actually riding the downhill gradient of the wave face, pulled by gravity, and not being pushed/pulled by water that is accelerating across the surface of the lake. Nonetheless, the energy of that following wave is still going to give you one hell of a push.

That's all to say that on a lake, I don't think current factors into the equation very much.

 

[Alan Gage]

Yeah, as proven when surfing standing waves, I suppose.


It shouldn't be, but it is. But I think maybe it's not current as we tend to think of it. Wave energy is weird, and it's not like a constant fl

I think current and waves are two very different things. I have a hard time wrapping my head around waves. I don't think they actually move like they seem to. I'm not even sure they really move much at all. I've never quite understood it.

Alan

 

[chrisrezac]

This is what I think I'm feeling. I'm not the strongest paddler, and I see the waves passing under me. If I could go a little faster (as in, approaching theoretical hull speed) I could be riding the waves instead of fighting them. Maybe a longer and faster canoe would help, but maybe my motor isn't big enough to take advantage of that, and it would kind of defeat my purpose for being out there most of the time.

I keep hoping I can increase my stamina to maintain my sprint, but age is making that less of a reality. As time progresses, it seems I'm going to rely more on the Wildfire for the very reasons you stated. I am thinking seriously though of similar hulls a foot longer, if they exist.

Steve, I agree with the idea that the faster you go, the less you have to fight directional control and broaching. Or how I think of it, the faster following waves are going in relation to your own speed, the pushier they will be. Waves don't really act the same as current. As the wave energy moves through the water, part of the water that creates the wave actually moves up the wave from the front, like a back current actually. If you've ever been in shallow water as a large ship travels by, it provides a good example. You will see the near shore water suck away into the deep, and shortly following that will be a large wave coming to shore. If you've ever seen tsumani videos along a shoreline, you can observe this phenomenon on a huge scale. I figure that while my stern lifts, gravity becomes the strongest force, and the water holding back my bow the second strongest force. The stern takes the path of least resistance. Skidding sideways often becomes less resistance than pushing straight forward.
So if you are stern heavy, the bow doesn't bury as deeply, so less resistance to surging forward. The stern is riding deeper, so more resistance to skidding sideways. If you're bow heavy, the bow buries deeper, and the stern is more free to skid.
When you're at the speed of a wave, there is an equilibrium that allows you to continue gliding along without the pushiness.
In the right chop with the right wind, it is possible to take advantage of this. But waves go through cycles. So the one you're on will always eventually let you go. So it becomes a timing thing with strong sprint strokes mixed with gliding and lighter strokes to maximize taking advantage of downhill gravity.
I bet you're probably also right that the best length, width, and rocker for given downwind conditions will depend somewhat upon the paddler. It will be interesting to see the different recommendations and preferences.
I recently took out both my John Winters Osprey and Swift Cruiser 17.8 to play with some small chop against current. The Cruiser bridged the crests, and while I could keep up and even move past waves with strong effort in the 17' 8" Cruiser, the 15' Osprey was easier to ride along in the sweet spot between waves that day. I paddled both unloaded and both seemed well-mannered, but it was just getting at the beginning level where it could be pushy and rideable. So no bold statements about anything.

 

[lowangle al]

I think that wind does move water and not just create waves. Evidence of this is when storm surges from a hurricane push water on shore. On your average sized lake this effect probably isn't noticeable, but when you have miles of fetch I think it is. I had gone many years without this problem in a tailwind and somehow thought I had "outgrown" it. Last year the problem returned when on a very large lake with at least 4 miles of fetch and a strong tailwind. Something was sure pushing my stern around, and it was more than wind. I'm sure that many people haven't experienced this if they haven't been on a large body of water.

Within a lake, if the waves were pushed forward like a current, then the water would need to eddy back around somewhere else in the lake,

I think this may actually happen. Years ago on a large glacial lake there was a strong wind coming off the glacier. It was tough paddling into it but when we got around a point we got out of the wind. Although there was no more wind there were large rolling waves going perpendicular to the wind driven ones.. I'm not sure if the waves were part of the eddy filling in the displaced water or not, but something caused them. The rolling waves were large and because there was no wind they were smooth. They were at least a few feet high, spaced far apart and were going in our direction. We were able to "surf" those waves, but never felt them pushing my stern around. When the wave lifted the boat we would take a few hard strokes and coast down its shallow sloping face. When it caught up to us and lifted the boat again we repeated the process. We made good time with very little effort. It was such good traveling we took advantage of it, covering a lot of miles. We paddled until about ten o'clock that night.

 

[ABT]

As time progresses, it seems I'm going to rely more on the Wildfire for the very reasons you stated. I am thinking seriously though of similar hulls a foot longer, if they exist.

The Starfire is basically the same boat a foot longer. Some folks act like it’s too wide to be a good solo but it’s 34” max width vs Wildfire’s 30”, and 30” at the gunwales vs WF’s 26”. So 2 inches further you have to reach per side. And one of mine is actually pulled in to 29” at the gunwale so even less. I’m 5’9” and don’t have any issues with a vertical paddle stroke, or leaning out far enough, etc, but as always test paddle first. I’m not the most flexible and even I can do cross bow strokes in it easily. It takes dedicated correction, and sit and switch will only get you about 3 strokes per side max, but it’s not as slow as you’d expect (it’s still a 34” wide highly rockered boat so temper expectations accordingly). It’s also a little deeper than WF, but not much, and a new one from Swift is lower sheer than the original. Comparable to Phoenix and WF depth at midship. My older Bell is rated at 38 lbs (lighter than IXP Phoenix) and the Swifts can be had much lighter. I’ll plug it every chance I get, but it’s my favorite boat so take my bias with a grain of salt .

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Scroll down to figure 10.1.3, and view the animation. This is what I imagine I'm feeling.

10.1 Wave Basics – Introduction to Oceanography

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There is movement in both directions, plus up and down. Under (correction - on) six miles of fetch, it's an interesting ride.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

The Starfire is basically the same boat a foot longer. Some folks act like it’s too wide to be a good solo but it’s 34” max width vs Wildfire’s 30”, and 30” at the gunwales vs WF’s 26”. So 2 inches further you have to reach per side. And one of mine is actually pulled in to 29” at the gunwale so even less. I’m 5’9” and don’t have any issues with a vertical paddle stroke, or leaning out far enough, etc, but as always test paddle first. I’m not the most flexible and even I can do cross bow strokes in it easily. It takes dedicated correction, and sit and switch will only get you about 3 strokes per side max, but it’s not as slow as you’d expect (it’s still a 34” wide highly rockered boat so temper expectations accordingly). It’s also a little deeper than WF, but not much, and a new one from Swift is lower sheer than the original. Comparable to Phoenix and WF depth at midship. My older Bell is rated at 38 lbs (lighter than IXP Phoenix) and the Swifts can be had much lighter. I’ll plug it every chance I get, but it’s my favorite boat so take my bias with a grain of salt .

That's a consideration.

I've been thinking of taking the Malecite out for a solo spin. It's been years since I did so. Its "backwards" rocker profile might muddy the picture, but maybe I'll learn something new. OTOH, my inland sailing experience tells me if I go out looking for wind, I'll probably get none.