Epoxy w/ Graphite Powder on Bottom of Wood Canoe + How a Wood/Dacron Canoe is Made

[Glenn MacGrady]

Some builders of rib and plank canoes, especially those that use Dacron instead of canvas, paint the bottom below the waterline with a mixture of epoxy and graphite powder instead of the usual marine paint on the rest of the hull. The supposed advantage of this treatment is that the epoxy-graphite will be both harder and slipperier than paint and will hence reduce abrasion, scratch and impact damage to the bottom.

Do any you have experience or opinions as to whether this actually makes sense? By that, I mean is it likely actually to work, is it worth the extra cost, what do you think of the aesthetics, and do you know of any downsides to the treatment?

Thanks.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I can only say the few (4) strippers I coated the bottoms of, with epoxy/Graphite, do seem faster, and after examining the bottoms, show few scratches.

Early on when building canoes, we did this. My Pearl was one. I'm glad I did.

The only draw back is, Don't leave them exposed to the Hot Sun ! A good friend left his Canoe, on the rack of his VW van, one Summer, as the Van was awaiting repairs. The Graphite Bubbled Big time.

I now just double layer the bottoms of my canoes, but see nothing wrong with doing this on a Stripper !

A wood Canvas ? I'd be a little worried about the flexibility of the epoxy, and cloth line. It might be tear line.

If I had an Old WC canoe, that needed new cloth ? I'd be tempted to try it, as long as the epoxy didn't get a chance to penetrate to the wood under the cloth.

You presumably would not do any harm, and only be out the cost of epoxy and graphite.

Good question Glenn !

Jim

 

[Waterdog]

I have the epoxy graphite coating on my 16' prospector canoe which is Dacron instead of canvas. I would never purchase a new one without the coating if it is an option and would be the first thing I put on before heading out into the bush if I bought a used one. I drag my boat over beaver dams and on/over rocks usually loaded and don't even think about it. That coating so far seems as abuse tolerant as royalex. It looks fine but is only visible upside down. I have never had an issue with it in the sun as Jim mentioned but who knows what factors might cause that. I would be more worried about a stick puncturing the side of the hull than anything happening to the epoxy coating on the bottom. Here are some shots of it in use and the bottom after a trip to BWCA and Whitney Loop the same year. The paint hull paint was almost as bad, but I sanded the scratches and spot painted. I have yet to do anything with the epoxy coating on the bottom.

P5100254 by Barry Rains, on Flickr

P5110393 by Barry Rains, on Flickr

PA020003 by Barry Rains, on Flickr


Barry

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Thanks, guys. Waterdog, your hull is dark. What is the paint color called?

 

[Waterdog]

Glenn,

The official color is Epifanes #23, but I would call it maroon i think. Its brighter in the sun.

PA190123 by Barry Rains, on Flickr

P9280496 by Barry Rains, on Flickr

P9280510 by Barry Rains, on Flickr

 

[Fitz]

The old timers used shellac on filled canvas and claimed it slipped off the rocks easier than paint. It is also easily renewed/refreshed. I have shellacked canoes, but haven't used one myself so can't comment beyond that.

Fitz

 

[ppine]

There is a new product out called Wetlander used to coat the bottom of boats. It results in a hard, slippery surface and comes in many colors. I have not used it, but it gets rave reviews. I plan to use it on the bottom of my aluminum drift boat for sliding off of rocks. Painting a canoe at the bottom at the water line, looks very traditional since that is how shellac was used on the old w/c boats for decades.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

There are differing opinions on protecting the bottom of a rib & plank canoe, which seem to range from mythology to personal anecdotal experiences. But anecdotal reports are of limited value since different paddlers will subject their hulls to greatly different levels of abuse. It would seem that the questions of abrasion and impact resistance could easily be subject to controlled empirical testing -- a la Mike McCrea with skid plates.

Some rib/plank builder should just make five test panels of filled Dacron. Then cover them with five different bottom treatments: fiberglass, marine enamel paint, shellac, epoxy-graphite powder, and Wetlander. After sufficient cure, each test panel could be subject to various controlled abrasion tests, such as scraping with rocks and sandpaper, and to impact tests, such as banging with rocks and poking with sticks. That kind of testing would be easy enough, and would give actual empirical comparative evidence of the slipperiness and resistance to scratching and impacts for each of the various hull bottom treatments.

 

[Waterdog]

Glenn,

ive been dragging my boat over obstacles, lining and paddling whitewater in mine since 2012 and believe I have gotten good value and protection from having the coating applied when new. I had intended to buy a Bell Black Gold prospector at the time but it didn’t work out. So I got the wood canvas one with zero intent on coddling it or treating it. I maintain the bright work and paint between trips.

However, I think that epoxy graphite layer’s best attribute is a sacrificial one in saving the skin from abrasion and tears. The boat has several cracked ribs and planks that I have repaired with epoxy. Should the boat ever need major repair and new covering, I would add half ribs to the boat. This would be far better at protecting the structure IMO than the epoxy skid plate. At least the way I use the boat.

cheers,

barry

 

[Guest]

The supposed advantage of this treatment is that the epoxy-graphite will be both harder and slipperier than paint and will hence reduce abrasion, scratch and impact damage to the bottom.

Do any you have experience or opinions as to whether this actually makes sense? By that, I mean is it likely actually to work, is it worth the extra cost, what do you think of the aesthetics, and do you know of any downsides to the treatment?

I can at least speak to the slipperiness.

I installed large Dynel and graphite powder skid plates on one of our downriver canoes. When I went to flip it right side up on the sawhorses the horses were positioned directly under the graphite skid plates.

The canoe shot off the horses like a watermelon seed squeezed between fingers.

The abrasion, scratch and impact resistance is harder to judge; I think most of those qualities are provided by the Dynel cloth. The paint topcoat has scratched through to the graphite (and black pigment) epoxy mix, but the abrasion has gone no further.

West System has this to say about their 423 Graphite Powder
423 Graphite Powder is a fine black powder that can be mixed with epoxy to produce a low-friction exterior coating with increased scuff resistance and durability. Epoxy/graphite is commonly used as a low-load, low-speed bearing surface, as a coating on rudders and centerboards, or on the bottoms of racing craft that are dry sailed. It does not provide antifouling qualities. The epoxy/graphite mixture cures to a black color.

So, yeah, I think it works. No idea what the extra cost might be in a manufactured canoe. A 12oz can of West graphite powder runs around $16 and added a max of 10% by volume would be enough to cover an entire canoe.

The aesthetics? I dunno.

I have not had black graphite skid plates bubble in the sun, despite some of those canoes being stored outdoors or enduring weeks of parked desert exposure on the truck roof racks. Those graphite black areas are only skid plate sized, and are covered with black paint.

 

[frozentripper]

The aesthetics with a graphite bottom are not great IMO... here's a photo of Tom Angelaikis' stripper (he used to post at CCR)...


So no, a stripper's bottom should look good, in a canoe (and can't resist, in other business ventures where good looks mean serious money-making capability, no photos).. .

The other thing Tom wrote about was that the graphite would rub off on a hand or on clothing, like newspaper blackening things.. Again, not for me.

Otherwise, the graphite worked great, slippery and with some colloidal silica thrown in, good abrasion resistance.

Tom's page on the matter... from a long time ago during the frontier town days of CCR.

http://tomangelakis.tripod.com/graph...%201%20season)

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The reason I started this topic is that I've been talking to Alex Comb of Stewart River Boatworks in Minnesota about his Ami and Solitude models. In my remaining canoe time, I'm interested in two things: (1) a light solo that is more initially stable than the four I already own and that may even be "stand-up-able"; and/or (2) a light rib/plank canoe to replace my heavy 17' Old Town wood/FG OTCA that, to put it charitably, disappeared on me.

The 15' Ami, which can be set up tandem or solo, is the only canoe I've found that perhaps could serve both purposes, though it may be too heavy for my increasing ancientness even at 50 pounds in Dacron.

So, I'm also looking at the 14' Solitude, which should be able to come in under 40 pounds. This would be about the same weight as my black-gold Wildfire. But I can't fit my stuffed Duluth pack behind me in the Wildfire, which is where I want it, because of the Wildfire's shallow stern depth and shouldered tumblehome. Hence, I always trip in my deep and roomy 15' Hemlock SRT, but as an early and overbuilt hull, it's becoming too heavy at about 47 pounds. The Solitude seems to have more interior volume than a Wildfire, and this photo of one gives me hope that my packs will fit where I want them:



The frustrating thing for a buyer like me is that Alex has no demo fleet except for one model I'm not interested in. I imagine his business is mostly repairs and restorations with new boat sales coming mainly by word of mouth. Not sure, never asked him. But I'm considering driving to Wisconsin and Minnesota just to demo these canoes from some of Alex's customers. Maybe.

Anyway, here's how a wood/Dacron canoe with an epoxy-graphite bottom is constructed by Alex and looks. All these pictures are of the Solitude.

After the hull is ribbed and planked, the Dacron is heat shrunk on with a clothes iron.





After the Dacron is shrunk-fit on the hull, a weave filler is applied. The ingredients of these fillers seem to be somewhat proprietary, though they are generically referred to as "airplane dope" because the use of Dacron began in the 1950's with builders of lightweight airplanes. In particular, Alex uses something called Stewart Systems EkoFill, and as alternatives he also mentions products called Poly-Fiber and Zinsser 1-2-3.



Four or five coats of filler are applied with sanding between coats.



If epoxy-graphite is applied to the bottom, the waterline is taped off and the slurry is rolled and brushed on. Don't know how many coats, but Alex says it adds some weight vs. simply painting the bottom with yacht enamel like the rest of the hull.



On this boat, he has tinted the epoxy reddish brown. I haven't asked him how many different tint colors are possible. I'd guess light colors wouldn't be feasible given the black graphite powder.



Here, on a different Solitude, is how the epoxy-graphite bottom looks on a newly finished hull. I don't find it particularly aesthetic.



Of course, the epoxy-graphite bottom will be below the waterline when the canoe is in the water. Yet, the aesthetic eye will still see it when the canoe is turned over on shore, stored on racks or being cartopped. (The white canoe is a Solitude.)



Aesthetics are important, especially for a high end wood canoe. The treatment costs $150 according to the Stewart River website, but I haven't asked Alex whether that can vary with boat size. You can see from Waterdog's picture of his Stewart River Prospector above how the epoxy-graphite bottom will look after several years of indelicate use.

So, the question in my mind is: Does the alleged slipperiness, abrasion resistance and hardness of an epoxy-graphite bottom outweigh the decreased aesthetics and increased costs, especially given the unknown (to me) performance of the alternatives?

I take very seriously Waterdog's personal experience and strong recommendations in favor of this treatment. But what I don't know is how the bottom of his hull would have fared in alternative universes, where he would have used the same boat in the same way, but where the bottom had been covered instead by traditional shellac, light fiberglass (which Alex says is also a possibility), new-fangled Wetlander, or simply Epifanes #23 paint like the rest of the hull.

Here are two Amis (Ami's, Amies?) simply painted with no epoxy-graphite bottoms:





And here's an all fiberglassed Ami made without nails, which eliminates the Dacron bottom issue altogether, but which Alex doesn't want to make again.



P.S. - All these photos were laboriously plucked and rearranged by me from the more than 500 photos on the Stewart River Facebook page, which I assume is okay since Alex made them all public for non-FB members like me.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

here's a photo of Tom Angelaikis' stripper . . . .

Tom's page on the matter...

http://tomangelakis.tripod.com/graph...%201%20season)

Frozentripper, thanks so much for that very interesting and thorough long-term review of an epoxy-graphite bottom on a strip canoe. After three years of use, Tom endorses the treatment for its performance but does note the bad looks and sooty side effects. I was also interested in the Gil Gilpatrick quote with which he began his review:

"The graphite isn't necessary unless you plan to give your canoe hard use where it will be frequently called upon for whitewater or in shallow streams where it will be dragged over abrasive sand, gravel, and rocks."

I wouldn't treat a very, very expensive (to me) wood/Dacron canoe to those kinds of abuses and wouldn't be dragging over Canadian shield as Tom does. Of course, some mid-stream hard things (rocks, oyster bars) and rocky, sandy shores are everywhere, but I've always carefully wetfooted and carried whenever possible. None of my flatwater composite canoes or sea kayaks, even those going on 40 years old, is badly scratched on bottom.

 

[alsg]

I have been debating adding this to my stripper. Even though I don't run much whitewater and always wet foot, I'm amazed after every season just how many scrapes the bottom acquires just from the usual assortment of barely submerged rocks, misjudged shallows, etc. The aesthetics are the big negative.

This isn't graphite. Rather is an epoxy/teflon bottom coating originally developed for airboats (think Florida).

https://fascoepoxies.com/Fasco-9xn-2...m-Coating.html

There's a page for numerous compatible pigments, including white.

http://fascoepoxies.com/Fasco-Pigments.html

I have no experience with this product and no idea how it would work on various canoe hull materials.

But I am intrigued!

 

[boatstall]

Glenn, the Wetlander systems are not new new, as they have been out for at least four or five years that I have been aware of. I am not endorsing them, but have been in several boats that have had their system applied. They have a fairly diverse color chart available, and all of their coating are non-ablative. US Navy utilizes, but publish no evaluations.

I have debated for quite a while about coating the bottom of my square stern canoe and my long tail motor duck boat, and the only hesitation is that it is almost too slick. I have a buddy that I duck hunt with that has his mud boat done with the Westlander system and he often gets laughed at by myself when he attempts to pull up onto a bank. Gets comical at times when he keeps sliding backwards off the bank. The first season opener after applying, he tried four times, with each successive attempt driving it further up onto the bank, and as he would attempt to walk up to the bow of the boat, back into the water he would slide. I beached my duck boat, got out, and was able to hold his boat by the bow line through the laughter, enough for him to be able to get out. He now has to pick a spot where he can step out of the boat without having any of the boat on the bank. Still good entertainment watching the attempts.

I wasn't with him when he launched for a test run the first time after applying, but the boat exited the trailer onto the concrete ramp as soon as he released the winch line. Over $300 to replace the bent prop on the mud motor. Slick stuff.

I can attest that it does allow for better sliding over shallow obstacles that the bottom comes into contact with, and definitely protects the bottom. It has held up well with only annual touch-ups needed from oyster shells, rocks, stumps, and submerged cypress knees, sand, and other unknown obstacles.

But unless you can exit the canoe by paralleling the bank and stepping out, good luck getting the canoe bow to stay on the bank long enough to get out.

 

[recped]

here's a photo of Tom Angelaikis' stripper (he used to post at CCR)...
]

Have you seen or heard anything from Tom in recent years?

I paddled with him once in 2002 and exchanged a couple of emails just after the trip but never heard from him again or saw him post anywhere.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I have been debating adding this to my stripper. Even though I don't run much whitewater and always wet foot, I'm amazed after every season just how many scrapes the bottom acquires just from the usual assortment of barely submerged rocks, misjudged shallows, etc. The aesthetics are the big negative.

This isn't graphite. Rather is an epoxy/teflon bottom coating originally developed for airboats (think Florida).

https://fascoepoxies.com/Fasco-9xn-2...m-Coating.html

There's a page for numerous compatible pigments, including white.

http://fascoepoxies.com/Fasco-Pigments.html

I have no experience with this product and no idea how it would work on various canoe hull materials.

But I am intrigued!

Thanks for the links alsg !

I like the idea of tinting the graphite ! Worthy of some experimenting.!

Yeah, graphite is not the the prettiest . But it's characteristics prove it's worth !

Jim

 

[Jim Dodd]

I should describe My application method, for graphiting a Strip canoe bottom a little.

My friend that the Graphite/epoxy mix, bubbled, in the Hot Summer Sun, had built and varnished his canoe, then later applied a graphite coat. I'm not totally sure how he did it. Guessing he at least sanded the varnish before applying the Graphite/epoxy mix.

When I apply to a stripper that I am building ? I use it as a Fill coat, right on top of the wet out coat. This gives it great bonding strength to the cloth.

As for adding any weight ? I don't think it's any heavier ! It takes the place of at least two fill coats. I take great care in applying the graphite smooth, as it is a big pain to sand !!.

My Mix ratio, was roughly by volume, 3 parts epoxy to one part graphite. This is the only time I mix more than a 9 oz batch at one time ! In fear of two batches coming out different colors ? I mix 18 oz or more at one time, This large of a batch needs to get on the hull quickly, before kicking in the cup !

Maybe my next build, I'll tint some graphite, and give it a go !

Jim

 

[frozentripper]

Recped,

Have you seen or heard anything from Tom in recent years?

I haven't seen him post either... sent an email to his hotmail address, it hasn't bounced back yet so maybe still active.

He was doing Russian studies in Canada IIRC so maybe he's moved there.

 

[Alan Gage]

I'm not sure what to think of the effectiveness of a graphite bottom. Like Glenn said it can be hard to trust anecdotal evidence and it usually isn't hard to find conflicting anecdotal evidence.

My understanding was that the slipperiness of a graphite bottom, if it were to actually be more slippery, would be when the bottom is actually being abraded and those slippery little graphite particles are being scraped off the hull to act as lubrication. Otherwise they're encased in resin and don't provide lubrication.

I suppose the argument can be made that since the resin is so saturated with graphite there are always many, many particles which are partially exposed at the surface which are constantly abrading, even if not visually obvious, thus providing lubrication.

I'm not quite sure I agree with the graphite making a harder or more durable surface. In my experience graphite (carbon) sands away very quickly and offers little abrasion resistance (compared to other materials). It's just a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if plain epoxy is harder than graphite infused epoxy.

For me personally I decided it wasn't worth messing with.

Alan