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Dream canoe dream rigging

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Thanks, Tomo
That wasn't my first set of seat supports for that hull.
I initially had some carbon fiber over foam rails(supports, cleats?), epoxied to the sides of the hull, with the seat suspended from those supports/cleats. That worked poorly, and I was thoroughly irritated by climbing over the seat when I traversed beaver dams.
Below is a link to pics of the entire build, including the seat pedestals. Any questions not answered by the photos, just ask.

BTW, I have a full build thread on another forum, but that forum is currently off line, assuming it comes alive again, I'll also link that thread.

here's the photo link:
 
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Question for SRT owners. Does a 30 liter barrel fit between the seat and rear thwart? What about 60L in that space?
 
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Thanks Waterdog! That's very helpful. Will the 60 liter not fit sideways or is the thwart in the way? Do they make 45L barrels?
Lovely!
 

Glenn MacGrady

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Do they make 45L barrels?

Yes, though you may have to get them from a source other than a canoe shop. Mike McCrea discusses and gives dimensions of various size barrels here:

 
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Will the 60 liter not fit sideways or is the thwart in the way? Do they make 45L barrels?
Welcome tomo. I do not recall for sure, but I think the 60L barrel is too tall to fit behind the seat in the same manner as the 30L. In other words I think the canoe is too narrow behind the seat to accommodate the barrel. It might be a while but the next time I have the boat at the house I will check for sure. My boats are in a rented garage on the other side of town. As mentioned by Glenn, check out Mike's posts on the topic. As far as the blue barrels, I can only say that Harmony and Recreation Barrel Works only make 60L and 30L barrels, and Recreation has a 20L option.

Cheers,
Barry
 
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I have seen 20L, 30L, 38L, 45L, and 60L blue barrels. There are probably other intermediate sizes.

I don’t think that the paddlesport companies are actually making barrels, or even having them made to spec. More likely they just buy 30L and 60L barrels, being the most canoeist-familiar sizes, from a manufacturer.

I find the intermediate sizes, 38L and 45L, most useful for food storage on solo trips. I really don’t like the weight of a foodstuff filled 60L, and we only use it on 4-person family trips, where one of my sons totes it.

If I were using a barrel for other-than-food storage - tent, tarp, clothes, sleeping bag – I’d want biggest one I could fit in my canoe. With a large volume barrel I want a harness, even if just for the walk into camp.

The 45L fits sideways in (almost) all of our boats, and I gotten 21 days worth of food & cookware in that barrel, with a small dry bag of no-odor stuff at the start.

The 38L and 45L were both purchased as used, repurposed barrels.
 
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Current plan:
Two tugeyes on the bow and stern. Two lowish for lining and two high for grab loops.
CSS spraydeck
End bags
D-rings for end bags and under thwarts for securing gear
Neoprene pads
Foot pegs
Deal bucket seat
Small end caps (see pic)
 

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Well, I'm in the weird position of trying to outfit a tripping canoe (SRT) that I have yet to take possession of for a long trip slated to start at the beginning of July (not ideal, I realize). Currently, I'm working on end bag flotation--see post above. I've been emailing with Shawn from Fall Line (thanks Barry from previous post), and he passed along the following picture as a reference, and indicated he would also need 'depth of boat from gunnel to hull at the large end of bags.' Any SRT owners out there care to help me get the measurements I'd need for Shawn to make a set of end bags?
 

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Glenn MacGrady

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Any SRT owners care to opine or share what end bag outfitting they have?

I use 30" urethane coated nylon end bags in my SRT when running whitewater. I don't recall what brand, but I know NRS, Harmony and Palm all have short canoe end bags in the 29"-32" length range.

I don't use end bags on lakes or other flat water trips, as my Duluth and day packs will provide enough flotation along with the built-in air tanks for flat water purposes.
 
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Any SRT owners out there care to help me get the measurements I'd need for Shawn to make a set of end bags?
Tomo,
I was had to drop off a boat at the garage where I keep my canoes and was able to get measurements indicated on the marked up canoe reference drawing. It should give a pretty good cross section. In general the measurements are the inside edges between the carry handle and bow thwart. Foot braces will be just inside this dimension and at the end is the float tanks. The inside edge of the carry handle lines up nicely with the float tank, so I took the measurements from there. I would make the wide end of the bag no longer then the 6th scupper hole dimension IMO so you can have some bow space for gear/trimming. I made the assumption that the same bag will fit in the stern. Hope this helps out.

canoe _SRT.jpgcanoe _SRT.jpg

Cheers,
Barry
 
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Current plan:
Two tugeyes on the bow and stern. Two lowish for lining and two high for grab loops.
CSS spraydeck
End bags
D-rings for end bags and under thwarts for securing gear
Neoprene pads
Foot pegs
Deal bucket seat


I like that outfitting plan, and being able to order some parts and pieces in advance can only help.

About the dual tugeyes I have not seen that solution on a canoe. I wouldn’t want the low lining tugeyes to have much of a loop, if any, lest it drag in the water or inadvertently catch exposed rocks or sunken branches. Maybe just lining tugeyes, wide enough to pass line through, with no attached loop?

The tugeye solution using PVC conduit flange adapters and tubing is an easy DIY. Flange adapters are available at big-box hardware stores in a variety of sizes, up to 1” wide inner diameter. If the tubing goes on the outside of the flange neck that protrudes inside the hull the full inner diameter is available to pass lining rope through when needed.

Outside (would have looked better had I first painted them black)

P5260015 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Inside

P5260016 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

With a CCS spray covers, which will make anything hand grab-able up front (carry handles, deck plate) inaccessibly covered, I want the grab loops long enough that my knuckles clear the tips of the decks. Maybe with some kind of toggle handle for hand comfort.

P4030013 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Ask ALSG how to tie a Bolivian Fisherman’s knot inside the toggle. Ask him why you shouldn’t G/flex in vinyl pad D-rings and then drive home with the canoe a few hours later. I never did do that before, and won’t again.

The other issue with spray covers, for me, is that, with the painter lines secured under Velcro lash straps at the stems there is nothing exposed gunwale-wise to grab en route to reaching the painters. Grabbing at a taut spray cover edge to hold the canoe is futile.

P1220460 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That’s a ways to scurry alongside the hull, with no exposed gunwale to grab hold of keeping the canoe under control.

I could put the bow painter under a Velcro lash strap on the cover within reach, but with covers often rolled open or, my compromise design, partial covers, I’d rather have something more secure and closer at hand.

For non-WW use I put an open clam cleat somewhere within arm’s reach, so I can be at least be holding the bow painter as I exit the canoe, and not swimming after a runaway canoe.

P1220461 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

That open cleat is on a utility/sail thwart, but there are mini clam cleats that should fit on a standard thwart. Or roller cam cleats, which might better accommodate thicker diameter paint line.

https://www.amazon.com/Nautos-91025-2-Bearing-Composite-Cleat/dp/B007YM5DWC

I am leery of a cam-held painter in any WW application, where loose lines are a hazard, but I’d need my fingers and toes to count the number of awkward current, wind or wave landings where I have been happy to have a painter in hand the instant I stepped out of a spray decked canoe.

The vinyl pad D-ring locations for float bags will be close-to-bag-end apparent when you fully inflate and cage the bags. Any thoughts as to cage lacing tie points? With a CCS cover the easiest solution for me was to install mini SS D-rings instead of washers behind the snap rivets.

PB260003 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Two birds with one stone, the snap studs need a washer back up inside the hull, and the mini D-rings provide that with no extra holes or attachments needed. FWIW each mini D-ring held 124lbs before the 1/8” pop rivet in a stud broke. With spray cover studs every 8” that is a lot of combined capacity.

These are pricey, but they are 316 marine stainless and, more importantly, flat on one side so they snap stud pop rivet flush against the inside of the hull, and the aperture opening isn’t cheaters-on thread the needle.


A spray cover doesn’t need mini D’s in lieu of washers backing up every snap stud rivet, but bow and stern as float bag lacing works well.

Vinyl pad D-ring locations for gear might be under the thwarts, or might not; I kinda figure out which bags, packs or barrels are going where in typical tripping guise, and then install the D-rings adjacent for a close, snug webbing strap.

And, I’ve sung the praises before, Northwater Double D anchors (I prefer the black nylon ones) have multiple advantages; both D’s used as a ladder lock for a webbing strap, or the two D’s tensioned in different directions. If I’m putting in a D-ring I’m putting in a double D-ring.

https://northwater.com/products/1-inch-double-d-ring-anchor

As oft mentioned, for ease of installation, the sturdiest, no gluing or screwing, no-holes-drilled tie points are simple webbing loops on the shank ends of thwart and carry handle machine screws. 1” poly webbing with a washer underneath will hold a crazy amount or weight without failing.

You mentioned a barrel earlier. When tripping I am always going to have an initially heavy food barrel, one that that fits sideways, always in the same location, either just aft of the seat or, more often, just past the front thwart, and have come to appreciate a minicel wedge to prevent it from rolling fore or aft.

In my usual tripping canoe that minicel wedge traps the barrel against a thwart, and prevents it from rolling back towards the foot brace bar.

P2170546 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

Neoprene pad or minicel pads. Or slices of grey yoga block? Knees, heels, inwale knee bumpers?

Foot pegs, blocks, pedals or a foot brace bar? I have pedals in some boats (well, all of the ruddered boats), but in an open canoe usually prefer a bar; my feet/legs are more comfortable somewhat centered on a bar than spread against the chines, and it is nice to be able to laterally adjust the position of my feet (and legs/knees) from time to time.

Fore/aft foot brace adjustability is a boon; the inch difference between thin water shoes and thick soled mukluks makes a world of That’s-the-spot comfort.

I’m looking forward to seeing the outfitted SRT. When will you be able to lay hands on it?
 
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This forum is a gem. Thanks, Barry for taking the time to take measurements! Very, very much appreciated. Barry, if I'm reading you right, your recommendation is to have the bow (and presumably stern) bags be about 16" long (from the grab handle/float tanks to around sixth scupper hole from grab handles) in order to facilitate room for packs and room for shifting packs around to dial in trim. Do I have that right? Do you think the rear measurements would be appreciably different given the SRT's asymmetrical design?

And thanks Mike for giving me additional things to ponder! I wish I lived close enough to spend a day in your shop (I have no skills) but I like drinks and smokables. I've got six of the Northwater black double d-rings enroute to my house as we speak. My theoretical pack placement is as follows: York Pack (I'm a sucker for the old wannigan of yore) and day pack in front of me, so likely a d-ring just past the neoprene pads, with webbing fed through the d-ring of the bow end bag. I'm opting for adjustable footbraces instead of the bar thinking that I might want to shift the york pack closer to me than a footbar would allow.

30 liter barrel behind me (d-ring just behind my seat I presume) between the seat and thwart (perhaps good spot for minicell wedge), with a Duluth-esque style pack behind that (I hear the SRT likes to carry more of its load behind the paddler). Barrel and pack would be anchored down with one piece of webbing, using stern bag d-ring and behind seat d-ring.

That's the idea, anyway.

Mike, I was thinking the lower (lining) tugeyes would have rope threaded through and tied, vs tied to loop of rope. And, yes, I am still planning on affixing a throw-rope to the grab handle on the stern deck to ride on top of spraydeck so that if I dump I can swim the rope to shore and haul in the canoe, so I'll need the spraydeck to have a way to anchor the lining rope and the throwbag.

Was planning on using the scuppered gunwales for end bag tie-downs.
I'll have to ponder the spraydeck/rocky/moving water/landing conundrum. Maybe some relatively flush grab handles along the sides of the spraydeck?

I've heard the SRT is twitchy, so I aspire to sit long enough to need inwale knee bumpers.

I put a deposit down in February and am hoping to have the SRT in hand by June, but there are a terrifying number of variables at play (build schedule, canoe transport to MN, etc.), not to mention scant time for outfitting--especially the spraydeck.
I have a two-month sabbatical beginning in July, so the sooner the better! In fact, Glenn, I was thinking you should buy a Stewart River canoe as you had pondered awhile back, drive from your place, pick up my SRT on the way, and then take possession of your Stewart river canoe. I'll pay for gas one way. I also have a Thoreauvian/Unabomber cabin about 100 yards from my house that you could hole up in....better yet, just sell me your SRT and I'll drive the Stewart river boat to you! That way I'll be a little less sheepish when I post to the 'what's the most you've paid for a canoe' thread. :) I work in the non-profit sector after all...
 
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Tomo, about the CCS spray covers, once you choose which style cover you want, and which accessories (paddle pockets, map case, etc) and make a deposit Dan will send you a large rolled piece of clear mylar with instructions as to how to tape it over the canoe and mark the locations of thwarts and seat.

Then you mail the marked template back to CCS (don’t forget to send the nose piece of your pop rivet tool so that it can be modified to fit inside the snap stud if you don’t already have such). CCS then makes your cover and sends it, with the sockets that go on the hull and the 1/8” pop rivets and washers.

The installation instructions are clear, and the initial pop riveting installation doesn’t take very long.

One possible way to reduce that wait time would be to order the cover before the canoe has arrived.

CCS keeps the spray cover templates from past canoes. There used to be a list of the canoes makes/models for which CCS already had a spray cover template, although I no longer see that list on the website. It is very possible that Dan has the template for an SRT cover.

If your SRT is factory stock, seat and thwarts in the standard locations, and CCS has a spray cover template for your new not-yet arrived canoe that might help your time crunch.
 
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This forum is a gem. Thanks, Barry for taking the time to take measurements! Very, very much appreciated. Barry, if I'm reading you right, your recommendation is to have the bow (and presumably stern) bags be about 16" long (from the grab handle/float tanks to around sixth scupper hole from grab handles) in order to facilitate room for packs and room for shifting packs around to dial in trim. Do I have that right? Do you think the rear measurements would be appreciably different given the SRT's asymmetrical design?
Tomo,

Yes, you have it right. You will need to consider how you will be packing the canoe and how much room you need in front of you. My SRT has foot braces. I don't know what type of water you will be paddling. I have an Outrage X that is purely for class IV whitewater and it has bags that take up the whole front and back except for where I sit. There's room for me, a nalgene, and a granola bar. In your case, tripping will require some floor space and the ability to swap packs and barrels from bow to stern and vice versa. By my eye, 16" long would be the maximum space I would want to give up. Not having the canoe in front of you to layout your typical packing arrangement makes it hard to dial in the bag size. You should have a little flexibility when you build the cage, if needs to be shorter, just fill the bag to suit the cage size. If you will be using a spray deck as well, the bags sole purpose will be extra flotation in an upset, not water displacement, since you should be pretty dry.

The stern didn't look to be a lot different. I could get exact measurements for you if you can wait until the end of the week. I am working out of town through the end of the week. Shoot me PM or reply here if you want me to measure the stern and I'll do my best to get it for you.

Good luck with your build.

Barry
 
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