Adding a Kneeling Thwart

[jandrews]

I've received my kneeling thwart from Ed's Canoe. There are no instructions included and thought this group would have some good advice.
My canoe is a short tandem (Refection 15) in Royalex. There are two handles by the stern and bow, two seats and a yoke. No other thwarts. I've paddled it backwards sitting in the bow seat and that was OK but I wasn't trimmed very well and heading back upstream wasn't great. I'm planning to install the kneeling thwart between the stern seat and the center yoke.
Where is the optimal place to install it?
I've heard 18" behind the center but this canoe is only 15'4".
Also, the drops included are pre-angled which is nice but I guess that means that wherever the thwart ends up hanging from the gunnels is the height and angle it will be. Hopefully it will be correct for me and feel OK.
Lastly, do I need to trim the excess wood at either end of the kneeling thwart at any sort of angle to match the curve of the canoe or is a right angle cut fine?
Thanks in advance

 

[Odyssey]

This is how I did it, perhaps not the right way. I had 2 thwarts in my canoe, 1 fore and 1 aft of the carrying yoke. I first sat on the rear thwart to guestimate if I'd need to drill new holes in the gunwales for a different position for the kneeling thwart...yes indeed I would. I measured back from center/yoke and sat-tested this location for comfort after reading the many suggested measurements. I wasn't happy with the result so I laid the now removed thwart across the gunwales to "feel" for the most comfortable distance from center. Measured and drilled new holes, traced and trimmed the thwart for length following the gunwale angle and not simply cutting a right angle, and installed the new kneeling thwart. Trying it out I found it not the right height for me, so once again guestimating the height I traced the supplied thwart drop angles onto some scrap wood, drilled, cut and installed these new drops with the new thwart, and was pleased with the position and height. I don't remember what the final height and measure from center was, but I wanted it comfortably close to center but not too close, and just high enough to tuck and retrieve my feet from underneath. Hope this all makes sense. All of this only cost me new stainless hardware, some scrap wood for the "new drops" and however long it takes to drink two cups of coffee.

NB I measured several times all the time everywhere for everything, taking nothing for granted. Why? Because for example I found that the drilled holes for my existing thwarts were not symmetrically aligned along the gunwales! ie My thwart was factory installed slightly askew. Good thing I was replacing it. And I'm a measure thrice cut once kinda guy, so that helps. I'm sure you'll get better advice from better paddlers paddling better canoes, but maybe this will give you confidence that if I can do it you sure as heck can.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Unless the Reflection is really Asymetrical, I would opt for putting the Thwart, behind the Bow seat, so you would be paddling, facing the Stern.

As far as, how far from center ? I would paddle kneeling, and rest the Thwart on the gunnels. Rest your cheeks on it, and that will give you the best idea ! Kind of a trial, and adjust, before cutting anything !

Start with the Thwart about 10" from center.

I'm concerned about the Thwart being in your way, if you place it ahead of the Stern seat, and then switch back to tandem paddling !

Jim

 

[Robin]

I'm working on a 16' Ranger canoe right now and it came with a kneeling thwart. The center carrying thwart was at 95 1/2 " from the tip of the bow, then the kneeling thwart is 23" behind the center thwart and the stern seat is 26" behind the kneeling thwart.
While the Ranger is 16', your canoe is only 8 inches shorter, maybe you can use my #'s to find a happy medium.

 

[yellowcanoe]

I have always had about 18 inches aft of the yoke.. All that counts is you be able to easily enter and egress if you tip over.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The ideal placement of a centralized seat is much discussed on canoe forums. The general idea is to have a level trim or slightly bow light trim. Depending on the shape of the canoe and the paddler, this usually means the front edge of the central seat should be somewhere between 4 and 10 inches behind the geometric center. Some people use the rule that, when kneeling, your belly button should be at the geometric center.

However, you can't follow these ideal recommendations because you have a portage yoke at the geometric center. So, I would be inclined to put the kneeling thwart as close to the portage thwart as possible, consistent with reasonable ability to get in and out. Yellowcanoe's 18" sounds about right.

In my first canoe I wanted the ideal central placement. So, I removed the center portage thwart and replaced it with a straight thwart, moved about 15" forward of center. Then I installed, not a kneeling thwart, but a wide cane seat about 6" behind center. That meant I had no fixed portage thwart in the canoe. So l made myself a removable clamp-on yoke out of the original center portage thwart for the rare times I would be on a canoe trip that required portaging.

As to the length of the drops, canoes have depths that can range from 11" to 16", so the factory drop length for your canoe may be too long (usually) or too short. That means you may have to saw off some drop length while keeping the angle, or adding some drop length with shims.

Of course, you don't know the best drop length until you experiment. You certainly want the ability to extract your feet without too much contortion. You can experiment with the drop at the factory length. If it gives a kneeling position that is too low, cut off small slices of the drops until you feel comfortable.

As to whether you have to angle the ends of the kneeling thwart to conform to the narrowing hull, yes you might. It depends on how the thwart aligns with the drops and the hull geometry.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Another thing to consider is if you intend to do any standing to pole or paddle. Most people will tell you that if your canoe is symmetrical (and maybe even if not), it is best to pole from behind the bow seat, facing the stern. While I did exactly that when I first started poling, I usually don't anymore - as I have found the extra space to be unnecessary in my 16' Nova Craft Prospector, probably due to its moderate rocker.

So, my kneeling thwart in the Prospector was mounted - experimentally (which turned out well after adjusting for height) - right where the original thwart between the stern seat and the yoke was. I honestly don't remember which bolt is using the original hole and which is the one I drilled fore or aft of that, but the front of the kneeling thwart is ~22" back of the yoke and the rear is ~23" ahead of the stern seat. The leading (lower) edge of the thwart is 8.5" above the center of the floor. Everything about placement is going to be personal preference depending on your particular boat and body, but that is what has worked well for me with my 5'-11" frame and size 11 feet in that boat.

I like to sometimes alternate between standing and kneeling, and that location works out well for both. It makes me a little bow-light when kneeling, but not enough to matter where I paddle it (mostly class 1&2 rivers) - and that is cured anyway with tripping gear or ballast ahead of the yoke. It does put me in a position where I can reach far enough forward with a paddle (especially the ottertail) to do effective sweeps, jams, and Duffeks.

 

[jandrews]

No Title

Thanks for all the suggestions with this.
I put the kneeling thwart in yesterday and tested it out today.
It's pretty much exactly 18" aft of the portage yoke at their closest points.
The angle of the drops is fine however I'm thinking it may be better to add some spaces to increase the depth of the yoke. I do feel like I'm up pretty high. But what a difference it makes being that close to center. I was able to work up a pretty good clip paddling on one side with slight corrective actions. As a beginner this is great for me. My hull is about 13" deep at that point so I'm thinking I'll bring the whole thing down an inch and a half before I take it out again.
Looking forward to getting more comfortable and improving my strokes as well as an overnighter in the coming weeks.
Does anyone know where to get a good quality T-shaped kneeling pad that stays in place?
Lastly, the canoe felt stable and quick heeled over as far as I comfortably could take it. The right gunnel was still a few inches up from the water...any farther than that and I felt like I was going over. I'm sure that's a combination of the hull shape and my skill level...but both knees on the right side of the hull created a situation where I felt I had a lot of control of the strokes.
Thanks again

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Looks good. You can lower your kneeling thwart experimentally by using various numbers of rubber or felt washers as shims. Once you settle on the correct height, you can make a wooden shim or an entirely new drop of the correct length. Ed's would probably make it for you if you want.

I've always used foam knee pads glued in with contact cement. Sometimes I've used inexpensive ensolite sleeping pad foam, at other times neoprene, cut to shape. There are also commercially cut knee pads from various sources, usually made of minicell.

If you want a removable T-shaped pad, they are fairly expensive. Cooke Custom Sewing used to make one and Piragis usually has them, and other posters here have them from other sources. Oak Orchard has them in two colors:

http://www.oakorchardcanoe.com/detail.php?product=0706

https://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/northstar-canoes/canoe-kneeling-t-pad-2910

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Yeah, that drop looks a little high.

You may be different, but I find 1/4" thick mini-cell to be all the padding I need. And yes, I glue it in too.

 

[pblanc]

I also use minicell foam. It comes in sheets of various thicknesses. You can cut it in whatever shape you like, and shape it with surface-forming tools or sandpaper. Glue it in with contact cement such as DAP waterproof (flammable) Weldwood.

If you are entertaining lowering your kneeling thwart, make sure that you retain ample clearance between the lower leading edge of the thwart and the hull bottom to provide heel clearance while you are wearing the thickest footwear you are likely to use. You will also find that it is very difficult to find stainless steel machine screws longer than 6" in length. You can sometimes find stainless carriage bolts that are 8" long, or longer, but they will require you to cut square notches in your gunwales.

 

[gumpus]

That's a nice looking kneeling thwart and a nice looking installation, it looks like it came from the factory that way.

Kneeling thwarts on tandems are often placed relatively high. One good thing is that it may help you keep more weight on your knees which keeps your center of gravity lower, plus if you lower it you may find it less comfy on your butt as your butt takes more weight on the relatively narrow "seat". So if your knees are happy and you have good control over the boat you might just leave it where it is for a while before making more changes.

 

[Magnus919]

I've ordered one of these for my Old Town Camper 16RX (in black walnut). This thread was really useful. I'll be sure to add some photos to help any others who stumble on this thread.