Impact of Heeling - Canoe Design

If the differential rocker results in the stern being skegged (as is often the case) it will take a defined level of heel and or pitch to lift the "skeg" clear before the stern will be free to skid. That "defined level" will vary from boat to boat. The load being carried and where it is positioned in the boat will also effect how easily the stern can be broken free. All things being equal, (which they rarely are) the symmetrical hull should require less heel under any given conditions than the asymmetrical/skegged hull.

If the differential rocker results in the stern being skegged, why not just use it as a skeg to facilitate turns? I would assume the skeg effect is there to make the boat track better. If that is the case it should also make a boat steer into turns when leaned into the turn. That is if the skeg action can overcome the forces on the hull that cause it to turn away from the side of the lean, like from a flatter trimmed symmetrical hull. By trimming the boat stern heavy or having even more differential rocker it should overcome the tendency to turn away from the side of the lean and turn into it.

lowangle al said:

If the differential rocker results in the stern being skegged, why not just use it as a skeg to facilitate turns? I would assume the skeg effect is there to make the boat track better. If that is the case it should also make a boat steer into turns when leaned into the turn. That is if the skeg action can overcome the forces on the hull that cause it to turn away from the side of the lean, like from a flatter trimmed symmetrical hull. By trimming the boat stern heavy or having even more differential rocker it should overcome the tendency to turn away from the side of the lean and turn into it.

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Perhaps I misunderstand your reasoning. Canoes turn mostly from the stern. (The stern rotates around the bow) A skeg causes the stern to resist turning, to either side. With enough heel, (and or pitch) it may be possible to raise the skegged stern clear of the water, but then the skeg will have no effect, turning in either direction.

Thanks for responding Marc. As you may or may not know from perusing the forum, I have been paddling tandem boats from the stern seat for the past several years. For the past season I've been focusing on carving with the stern, by using it as a skeg. From my many years of paddling from a more centralized position I am aware that a boat will turn away from the side of the lean. What I discovered from the stern seat is that by releasing the bow with a bow light trim the stern stem acts like a rudder and it will carve in the direction you are leaning toward.
I have found that I get much more turning action using the stern than I can using the curvature of the hull and releasing the stems. The deeper the stern the sharper the carve. What I'm feeling is, by carving with a deep stern stem, the boat will track along that carve and will turn on its own. You will also get some of this effect by carving with the curve of the hull, but to a much lesser extent.

Again, thanks for engaging me on this. I know it flies in the face of modern traditional paddling as described by Bill Mason and others, and is especially counter to the freestyle paddling that you are doing. Which I think is great by the way. I think what I am doing predates Masons books and videos, which I think scared people away from this stern heavy style. I know it did for me, for thirty years anyway, since first reading "Path Of The Paddle"
Alan

lowangle al said:

Thanks for responding Marc. As you may or may not know from perusing the forum, I have been paddling tandem boats from the stern seat for the past several years. For the past season I've been focusing on carving with the stern, by using it as a skeg. From my many years of paddling from a more centralized position I am aware that a boat will turn away from the side of the lean. What I discovered from the stern seat is that by releasing the bow with a bow light trim the stern stem acts like a rudder and it will carve in the direction you are leaning toward.
I have found that I get much more turning action using the stern than I can using the curvature of the hull and releasing the stems. The deeper the stern the sharper the carve. What I'm feeling is, by carving with a deep stern stem, the boat will track along that carve and will turn on its own. You will also get some of this effect by carving with the curve of the hull, but to a much lesser extent.

Again, thanks for engaging me on this. I know it flies in the face of modern traditional paddling as described by Bill Mason and others, and is especially counter to the freestyle paddling that you are doing. Which I think is great by the way. I think what I am doing predates Masons books and videos, which I think scared people away from this stern heavy style. I know it did for me, for thirty years anyway, since first reading "Path Of The Paddle"
Alan

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That's an interesting perspective. I'll have to try it myself and see if I come to a similar conclusion. It may be some time before I have the opportunity. My other concern with paddling, stern heavy would be, when there is wind. With the boat significantly stern heavy, it will weather-vane, with the bow always wanting to point down wind. How do you handle that?

To simplify things and not stray too far from the topic of the thread there are a few things I do in the wind. First, I paddle almost directly into it. The stronger the wind the less I can deviate from it. If I need to go right or left I move laterally, just like doing a forward ferry in a current. The second thing is, I have to be willing to leave the stern seat and jump forward, usually to in front of the stern thwart or sometimes to kneeling under the center thwart. Thirdly, I always have a six foot paddle as my spare. I originally used it for standing, but I rarely stand anymore. Now I use it when needed in the wind for the extra leverage.

Since I have been on this carving with the stern journey I use my hull (stern) to help steer the boat into the wind or otherwise. I find I rarely need to jump forward in the boat to adjust trim or grab the six foot paddle to stay on track.

As far as heeling a boat and how it relates to carving, I think you can be heeled over but not carving. To carve I need to be heeled over just a little bit more. The more you heel and the deeper your stern the more you will carve.

I've never tried this in a solo boat, but I have done it from the bow seat backwards position in tandems and felt that same carve from the stern. The trick is to get the stern deep enough while still maintaining stability. Another thing I've noticed is, the faster you're going, the more effect you will get with less lean and a flatter trim.

Good luck if you try it, I think you will feel what I'm talking about. Let us know.

NikonF5user said:

the question is whether boats designed with a slight amount of differential rocker . . . have any difference in maneuverability when heeled

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Glenn MacGrady said:

I take it you are asking about heeling from a centralized solo seat.

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I clarified my initial post in this thread to focus on paddling from a centralized seat because our resident solo-stern-paddling-a-tandem aficionado, @lowangle al, had already been participating. Al has experimented with and perfected his solo style in his tandem canoes, many wood/canvas and as long as 20 feet as I recall, often from the stern—sometimes with various types of bow ballast and sometimes with none.

Obviously, Al's atypical seating position doesn't allow the stern to "crack", breakaway or slide for turns. Nor can he significantly lighten the stern for crack/breakaway by pitching forward from the stern seat. Nor can he employ the many bow strokes as effectively as a centrally seated paddler can.

It does seem to me, however, that stern seating without ballast in a long tandem will shorten the waterline by lifting the bow clear of the water. This shortening of the waterline surely helps with pivot turns on the stern, whether heeled/carved or not. I'm not sure I follow his method(s) of wind paddling.

It's difficult to paddle a wide tandem from a centralized seat and get all the hydro-physics advantages that a centralized paddler in a narrow solo canoe can. For example, it's more difficult to get a vertical paddle for forward strokes, to do cross strokes, and to heel the canoe. Therefore, Omer Stringer in the 1930s (and, in my opinion, paddlers for thousands of years before him) popularized the "Canadian style" of paddling a tandem from the center with knees offset in the chine, causing a permanent hull heel. That way, one can get a more vertical forward stroke, can lift the stern stem out of the water for relatively free-spinning turns, and can pitch the bow down to shorten the waterline. However, the permanently heeled tandem makes all cross strokes very difficult to impossible, and also converts the canoe into a big sail in the wind.

lowangle al said:

I think what I am doing predates Masons books and videos, which I think scared people away from this stern heavy style.

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I don't agree that a majority, or even a large plurality, of solo paddlers in tandem canoes paddled stern heavy before Mason.

Folks who paddled solo in tandems did so from centralized positions long before Mason. Stringer was before Mason. And we have posted pre-Stringer videos on this forum of wood/canvas paddlers in centralized positions, such as Reg Blomfield and Charles River racers. It's also not difficult to find pictures of Native Americans paddling solo in birch bark canoes from the center. And, yes, it's possible to find pictures of natives paddling solo from the stern or even the bow, usually in dugout canoes.

Paddling solo from anywhere in a canoe is possible and has its adherents, but the hull and paddling physics will be somewhat different from each position, and most different from the extreme stern (or bow).

I think it might be fun for @lowangle al to attend the October Functional Freestyle event in the NJ Pine Barrens if he's in Pennsylvania at that time of year. Modern solo canoes are available to rent or borrow from other participants. It's also fun to try paddling big tandems in different ways.

As for this thread, you folks can go in any paddling technique direction you want. It's been very interesting to me so far with the various participants, experiences and points of view.

Sorry about any thread drift, but my intension was to relate carving with your stern to a boat with differential rocker. I've picked up my paddling style from all disciplines. I've gotten a lot from Tom Fosters videos where I learned to incorporate carving in a big way. Tom mostly does his with his bow, but by leaning back in his solo boat he can carve with his stern. This made me question why would a paddler need to release their stern, by heeling away from the turn, rather than engaging it and carving into the turn. Like you would do in a white water solo boat.

Other than that I can't disagree with what Glenn said. I'm sure he's right about Bill Mason not being the first to promote paddling from the bow seat backwards position. I did recently see in a video posted here where someone referred to Bill as the father of traditional paddling, so he must have had a large following. Almost all of the older paddlers I meet that are now in the mid seventies and up and all seem to have been influenced by Bill. Like I said before in this thread I think it was Bill who scared almost all of us from paddling from the stern seat. When I think of the history that reenforces what I am doing, it is from very old photos of men, who probably made their living in a canoe, sitting in the stern seat. I don't think it was out of ignorance, I think it worked for them.

I've been wanting to attend a freestyle workshop for a while. I like what they can do and how they get their boats to move. I'm sure I could incorporate some of their techniques into what I'm doing now, just because I may start a paddle from the stern seat doesn't mean I have to stay there. I may also become a paddler of dedicated solos in the future as my gut feeling is that they are less work than paddling a bigger boat.

What I've learned is, get your education and inspiration from as many sources as you can, and stay open minded. If someone had told me eight years ago that I would soon be predominantly paddling solo from the stern seat, I would have thought they were crazy.

lowangle al said:

Sorry about any thread drift, but my intension was to relate carving with your stern to a boat with differential rocker. I've picked up my paddling style from all disciplines. I've gotten a lot from Tom Fosters videos where I learned to incorporate carving in a big way. Tom mostly does his with his bow, but by leaning back in his solo boat he can carve with his stern. This made me question why would a paddler need to release their stern, by heeling away from the turn, rather than engaging it and carving into the turn. Like you would do in a white water solo boat.

Other than that I can't disagree with what Glenn said. I'm sure he's right about Bill Mason not being the first to promote paddling from the bow seat backwards position. I did recently see in a video posted here where someone referred to Bill as the father of traditional paddling, so he must have had a large following. Almost all of the older paddlers I meet that are now in the mid seventies and up and all seem to have been influenced by Bill. Like I said before in this thread I think it was Bill who scared almost all of us from paddling from the stern seat. When I think of the history that reenforces what I am doing, it is from very old photos of men, who probably made their living in a canoe, sitting in the stern seat. I don't think it was out of ignorance, I think it worked for them.

I've been wanting to attend a freestyle workshop for a while. I like what they can do and how they get their boats to move. I'm sure I could incorporate some of their techniques into what I'm doing now, just because I may start a paddle from the stern seat doesn't mean I have to stay there. I may also become a paddler of dedicated solos in the future as my gut feeling is that they are less work than paddling a bigger boat.

What I've learned is, get your education and inspiration from as many sources as you can, and stay open minded. If someone had told me eight years ago that I would soon be predominantly paddling solo from the stern seat, I would have thought they were crazy.

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My father was hired by Ontario Lands and Forests as a summer ranger way back in the 40's, and taught me how to canoe. I honestly don't remember any rangers back then, including guys like Omer Stringer who was born in Algonquin park around 1910 into a family of rangers if my memory is correct, ever soloing from the stern- all were using either Chestnut or Peterborough W/C or early Grummans with either a dedicated centre seat, three seats (the big Grummans), or paddling backwards from the bow seat.
As a kid I had the honour of paddling with many of these legends who annually put in hundreds of hours annually in a canoe, and they overwhelmingly taught us kids to paddle from a central position using the "canadian" style, although there WAS a little bit of stern soloing taught- usually for when your bowman was incapacitated, and when there was really no better option
I'm not saying it didn't happen, but even before Bill came along the standard was using a centralized position

Thanks for your input Scoutergriz, you were very lucky to have those experiences with your Dad and those experienced guides. I had to figure things out on my own through books mostly, but with some in person training. The time period that I'm thinking about was probably earlier, and the place was Maine, and the boats may have been big EM Whites. I have read that the tradition back then among the Maine guides was to have the "sport" sit on the bottom of the boat just ahead of center and not paddle. Their boat often didn't even have a bow seat. It's these guides that I think used their sterns to carve with. I say this because, to perform those manuevers with another person in my boat that is not paddling I would prefer they sit on the bottom close to center. This would give them the trim they need and the low center of gravity would let them lean the boat as needed. Someone sitting in the bow seat makes it hard to lean effectively.

lowangle al said:

I may also become a paddler of dedicated solos in the future as my gut feeling is that they are less work than paddling a bigger boat.

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That has certainly been my experience. It's interesting though that my preferred flatwater solos are as long as some of my tandems. Longer, even, than my first two. The first thing I noticed was easier lifting and carrying, even for the same given weight. Then it was easier reach to the water from the middle, and lastly, just a more efficient shape.

lowangle al said:

I have read that the tradition back then among the Maine guides was to have the "sport" sit on the bottom of the boat just ahead of center and not paddle. Their boat often didn't even have a bow seat. It's these guides that I think used their sterns to carve with. I say this because, to perform those manuevers with another person in my boat that is not paddling I would prefer they sit on the bottom close to center. This would give them the trim they need and the low center of gravity would let them lean the boat as needed. Someone sitting in the bow seat makes it hard to lean effectively.

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Those Maine guides were into poling in that configuration too.
This might be more thread drift, but now you're reminding me of this video you've probably seen in one or more of the poling threads. Stern carving...


Under less extreme conditions I would be standing just behind the yoke to carve a turn, and it's definitely easier to spin the boat from there. But while it may not be obvious at first, I'm definitely getting the bulk of bow control from stern carving there. You might have to look close to notice the offside heel. The pole in the water is as much about arresting forward movement so I don't crash into the weir as bow control. Without the offside heel, using enough pole power to control the bow would blow me off the wave. And I recall that I was thinking that I would move back even more if the float bag wasn't in the way. So... there's that.

Firstly, I love this thread.

Secondly, at the risk of even more thread drift... but at least on the subject of extreme stern paddling... when I was a camper and counselor during summer canoe trips on the Allagash, we were taught something called 'Gash paddling. The word "Gash" is, of course, a contraction of Allagash.

'Gash paddling happened on the slower, lowland flats of the Allagash river. This lesson would come after we campers had already cut our teeth on the wind blown lakes of Umsaskis and Chamberlain, carried Mud Pond portage and navigated Chase rapids. So by the time of this particular lesson, we already fancied ourselves to be lean mean paddling machines. And those of us who were sternmen carried ourselves with an especial arrogance. Many days into the trip, a sunny afternoon might induce some listless drifting through the bows of the river and we were all certain that we deserved some rest.

By turning the boats around backwards, 'Gash paddling transformed the bowman into a sternman, and the sternman into the "sport," guided along at his leisure. To accomplish this, the bowmen would sit on the deck of the bow and face the stern. Since we paddled Old Town RX Discoveries, the plastic decks were sufficiently comfortable for the average camper's derriere. In trade, the bowman relished his newfound control and the sternman relished the suntanning, or nap. I remember being surprised by how much the trim adjustment would plant the bow deep into the water and also how relatively unstable the arrangement felt at first, until the bowman settled into his new responsibility.

I confess that I may still carry the attitude of the sternman's superiority through life.

Spellcheck is rejecting the the word "sternmen," but we know better.

scoutergriz said:

My father was hired by Ontario Lands and Forests as a summer ranger way back in the 40's, and taught me how to canoe. I honestly don't remember any rangers back then, including guys like Omer Stringer who was born in Algonquin park around 1910 into a family of rangers if my memory is correct, ever soloing from the stern- all were using either Chestnut or Peterborough W/C or early Grummans with either a dedicated centre seat, three seats (the big Grummans), or paddling backwards from the bow seat.
As a kid I had the honour of paddling with many of these legends who annually put in hundreds of hours annually in a canoe, and they overwhelmingly taught us kids to paddle from a central position using the "canadian" style, although there WAS a little bit of stern soloing taught- usually for when your bowman was incapacitated, and when there was really no better option
I'm not saying it didn't happen, but even before Bill came along the standard was using a centralized position

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Thanks again for posting this. It gave me some perspective of the traditions that shaped Bill Mason's style. It also enlightened me about traditions are not only a function of time, but of place too. If I'm right about the old Maine guides using their sterns like I describe, it may have been a tradition that was lost when they switched over to using motors.

Steve in Idaho said:

Those Maine guides were into poling in that configuration too.
This might be more thread drift, but now you're reminding me of this video you've probably seen in one or more of the poling threads. Stern carving...

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The beauty of it from that position is, you can lean either way and paddle/pole on either side with very quickly and with very little body movement.

Pseudonym said:

Firstly, I love this thread.

Secondly, at the risk of even more thread drift... but at least on the subject of extreme stern paddling... when I was a camper and counselor during summer canoe trips on the Allagash, we were taught something called 'Gash paddling. The word "Gash" is, of course, a contraction of Allagash.

'Gash paddling happened on the slower, lowland flats of the Allagash river. This lesson would come after we campers had already cut our teeth on the wind blown lakes of Umsaskis and Chamberlain, carried Mud Pond portage and navigated Chase rapids. So by the time of this particular lesson, we already fancied ourselves lean mean paddling machines. And those of us who were sternmen carried ourselves with an especial arrogance. Many days into the trip, a sunny afternoon might induce some listless drifting through the bows of the river and we were all certain that we deserved some rest.

By turning the boats around backwards, 'Gash paddling transformed the bowman into a sternman, and the sternman into the "sport," guided along at his leisure. To accomplish this, the bowmen would sit on the deck of the bow and face the stern. Since we paddled Old Town RX Discoveries, the plastic decks were sufficiently comfortable for the average camper's derriere. In trade, the bowman relished his newfound control and the sternman relished the suntanning, or nap. I remember being surprised by how much the trim adjustment would plant the bow deep into the water and also how relatively unstable the arrangement felt at first, until the bowman settled into his new responsibility.

I confess that I may still carry the attitude of the sternman's superiority through life.

Spellcheck is rejecting the the word "sternmen," but we know better.

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I'm glad you're enjoying the thread, Sometime I feel like I'm coming across as a blowhard, always interjecting and yapping about the same thing.

It's interesting about that Gash paddling. Maybe it's a remnant from those old Maine guides and their traditions.

Steve in Idaho said:

This might be more thread drift, but now you're reminding me of this video you've probably seen in one or more of the poling threads. Stern carving...

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Don't worry about thread drift or repeating things we've all said in the past. It's a thread about different ways to turn or otherwise control a canoe, which all involve heeling of one sort or another from one position or another.

I'm not a poler, but Steve in his Millbrook Souhegan is certainly a good one. He approaches the surfing wave from a position slightly behind center. When he gets into the wave trough, he hops back further into the stern—I assume to lift his bow so it doesn't submarine or nosedive into the frontal wave. He then surfs as all whitewater boaters do, using heels/carves and paddle/pole ruddering and other adjustments. When he leaves the wave, he hops more forward toward the center of the canoe again.

Glenn MacGrady said:

Steve in his Millbrook Souhegan Coho

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I would so love to try a Souhegan.

I was having a very good day there. I've been blown out of that wave quickly many times, and I've gone from standing to swimming there more than once. Ideal CFS made me look good.