The easier a boat turns the less energy it takes to get back on track. I’ve wondered if this could be an energy saver compared to a straight tracker. My guess is it would, more so for single side paddling than hit and switch.
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Paddling advice for long, flat, skinny boats
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In my limit experience, it's only an issue in significant wind. It's definitely easier then to keep the Wildfire on track. But lacking that, the Moccasin moves faster with less effort and less correction. But yeah, when I was out on the lake in 20+ mph wind, I was kind of wishing I had chosen the Wildfire instead of the Moccasin.
It's a bit more complicated than that though, I think. The Solitude is much less of a problem in wind, due at least partially to its low shear. And it's more neutral regarding leaning in turns, even though it lacks rocker. Maybe being Swedeform has something to do with that? Idunno.
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I asked this exact question to Shawn Burke, author of The Science of Paddling because I have the same suspicion as you. His answer was "I don't know, it's complicated". I respect his honesty.
I remember reading that K1 kayaks lose 11-14% efficiency due to yaw losses so I'm curious about rocker and also wonder if I should put more priority on keeping the boat pointed straight.
Congratulations! I don't have much to add to this thread, mainly my experience paddling an Advantage.
It's a fun canoe but as you're expecting, it's much different than paddling a rockered tripping or sport canoe. You just have to adapt to the boat's strengths and weaknesses. It flies along with good hit-and-switch technique but you have to train your brain to stop trying to keep it going in a straight line using correction strokes. Traveling fast in a solo cruiser results in a series of shallow arcs as you switch sides, and with practice you can get five or six (or more) strokes per side before switching. Turns seem to work best using a combination of a hard stern sweep and post while heeled to your onside.
Wind and waves adds a bit of challenge but once you figure out how to use the force of the wind and waves against the bow to offset yaw, you can actually fly along without having to switch very often. It's sort of like tacking into the wind with a sail boat. It sometimes takes a strong stern sweep to nudge the canoe back on track. And paddling down wind can be a lot of fun, basically surfing the waves. Pay attention to fore and aft trim depending on the direction of the wind; think of your canoe as a weather vane and weight the wind end. It won't keep the canoe tracking on its own but it helps.
I like to push against the footbrace with the onside leg for sit-and-switch paddling. It gives you additional leverage (so you're not sliding forward off the seat) during the abdominal crunch phase of the stroke.
if you have a foot strap attached to the footbar, it is easier to lean the canoe when making a turn. I like it when the water is a little rough as well as it helps brace myself.
I've tried foot straps and have mixed feelings about them. A buddy of mine just sticks his toes under the bar when he wants to heel the boat or wants extra leverage in rough water. I haven't decided which I prefer.
Spent a bunch more time (8+ miles) in the Advantage yesterday. I agree with folks who said leaning outside assists a turn. Very notably there was virtually no wind, which I'm sure changes things quite a bit.
I was trying this, but felt like it was too powerful and was adding more yaw and demanding more frequent switches. Hypothetically the obvious answer is push less, but if you're really letting gravity do the work that was easier said that done for me. I think length of stroke and entry (catch) and exit points are probably important too. Lots for me to learn still.
I was certainly experiencing this and was glad you'd described this ahead of my trials. Still seems like I'm having to switch every 3-5 strokes to minimize yaw. I need more practice.
Are you referring to what's desribed in these Tahitian style paddling videos? https://www.canoetripping.net/threads/tahitian-style-paddling.130264/
I was trying this, but felt like it was too powerful and was adding more yaw and demanding more frequent switches. Hypothetically the obvious answer is push less, but if you're really letting gravity do the work that was easier said that done for me. I think length of stroke and entry (catch) and exit points are probably important too. Lots for me to learn still.
I tried my underwater recovery and my (best attempts at a) Northwoods stroke. I thought the Advantage responded very smoothly to both, and while both felt efficient in a relaxing way, if I wanted to make miles fast I think sit and switch still wins.
Stroke length is very important. It should be quite short. It took me a long time to get this down (not that mine is perfect by any means) because in my newbie days of not knowing much I'd gotten in the habit of taking long strokes. Power is applied at the catch and, I'd say by the time your hand has reached between mid-thigh the stroke is effectively over and recovery is starting.
When paddling H&S I will often intentionally lengthen the stroke once or twice to initiate a turn.
Did you happen to measure your cadence?
Alan
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I have never tried it! I think that may suggest how I feel about it. I need to take a straight shaft with me and try it.
I'm not comfortable yet about disagreeing with the short & fast cadence teaching, but the more I try to put Paukea's teaching in those videos to practice, the better I'm doing overall. It helps to review the videos once in a while to remember important points - like making the catch as far forward as possible, using muscle (not just weight) to bury the blade before pulling the boat forward, engaging your core, and more time in the water and less time in the air. I think one of the key points is rather than increasing cadence to accelerate the boat, to let the speed of the boat dictate cadence. My thought is that cavitation is your enemy, and the energy wasted in producing it is also wasted in initiating yaw.
Sort of, they use paddles with a double bend so I'm not sure how that effects the catch and power phase but it seems like what he's describing is how it feels when the canoe is flying along. You have to keep the blade close to the hull and the shaft fairly perpendicular to the water or you'll accentuate the yaw. Steve posted before I replied and has good suggestions, and as Alan mentions, the stroke is (relatively) short since there's no correction phase. And I'll repeat something Steve brought up; John Puakea highlights in the video that cadence is dependent on the speed of the canoe, something I forget at times, especially when trying to accelerate. (John called it "spinning in the grass".) It's more important to feel a solid catch, apply power, and finish the stroke with an efficient recovery. But I'm certainly not an expert hit-and-switch paddler and don't have the power that a good racer has, I've just developed a paddle stroke that seems to work pretty well for me.
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Thanks, Steve, Alan and tketcham, that's all helpful. I have a long way to go if I plan to keep it up.
I must say my back is more comfortable when I kneel, enough that I tried kneeling on the tractor seat a couple times just to stretch the back a bit. If I keep the hull I'll either put in a bench seat or get some padding to put on top of the tractor seat to get some height while kneeling. One thing I like about canoes over kayaks is the ability to switch positions during a longer paddle.
Tketcham, I'm curious where you'd put your Trillium on the spectrum from something like the Advantage to something like a Wildfire or similarly rockered and agile boat?
I must say my back is more comfortable when I kneel, enough that I tried kneeling on the tractor seat a couple times just to stretch the back a bit. If I keep the hull I'll either put in a bench seat or get some padding to put on top of the tractor seat to get some height while kneeling. One thing I like about canoes over kayaks is the ability to switch positions during a longer paddle.
Tketcham, I'm curious where you'd put your Trillium on the spectrum from something like the Advantage to something like a Wildfire or similarly rockered and agile boat?
I have a Hemlock Kestrel but it's very similar to the Trillium. I actually purchased the Kestrel because I wasn't using the Advantage as much as I used to and we wanted something more like a sport canoe to complement our Lady Bug. Plus, we didn't want to add to the number of canoes in the garage.
The Kestrel isn't a sport canoe but people have used it at Free Style symposiums, and the Kestrel isn't a cruising canoe but you can paddle it hit-and-switch and it will go along pretty well. Acknowledging that it really isn't either type of canoe I'd lean it toward the cruising canoe side of the spectrum, but not by much. It is after all, a touring canoe. The one thing I don't like about the Kestrel is that the seat height is lower than I prefer. I find that it gets uncomfortable after sitting for a while and the seat is a bit low for kneeling. I may raise the seat up to improve both; the Kestrel is plenty stable with my weight so a higher sitting height should be manageable. (I raised the seat on the Advantage using spacers and having good foam padding on the tractor seat is a must.)
And now the rest of the story...
Because the Kestrel isn't as nimble as a true sport canoe, we ended up getting a Northstar Firebird for me to paddle. And adding to the story, I have a couple of friends that now have fast cruising canoes and I missed being able to paddle a true cruiser so I've got one on order. To accommodate it in the garage, I added another set of canoe racks. OK, that's it, no more canoes.
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Ah, I had mis-remembered your Firebird as a Trillium. Overall I've been very happy with my Phoenix, but on a couple longer lake trips I'd been wishing for something better for sit&switch cruising. I'd started second guessing taking the Phoenix over an NS Solo...and then along came the Advantage.I have a Hemlock Kestrel but it's very similar to the Trillium. I actually purchased the Kestrel because I wasn't using the Advantage as much as I used to and we wanted something more like a sport canoe to complement our Lady Bug. Plus, we didn't want to add to the number of canoes in the garage.
The Kestrel isn't a sport canoe but people have used it at Free Style symposiums, and the Kestrel isn't a cruising canoe but you can paddle it hit-and-switch and it will go along pretty well. Acknowledging that it really isn't either type of canoe I'd lean it toward the cruising canoe side of the spectrum, but not by much. It is after all, a touring canoe. The one thing I don't like about the Kestrel is that the seat height is lower than I prefer. I find that it gets uncomfortable after sitting for a while and the seat is a bit low for kneeling. I may raise the seat up to improve both; the Kestrel is plenty stable with my weight so a higher sitting height should be manageable. (I raised the seat on the Advantage using spacers and having good foam padding on the tractor seat is a must.)
And now the rest of the story...
Because the Kestrel isn't as nimble as a true sport canoe, we ended up getting a Northstar Firebird for me to paddle. And adding to the story, I have a couple of friends that now have fast cruising canoes and I missed being able to paddle a true cruiser so I've got one on order. To accommodate it in the garage, I added another set of canoe racks. OK, that's it, no more canoes.
Meanwhile I'd told my wife from now on if I brought a new boat home, another would leave. Well, that was two boats ago and I just added a third rack in the garage....oh dear. (Luckily she's very supportive of my habit as long as her car fits.)
Yeah, I told that fib too. We have understanding wives.
Good wife example #1:
A few years ago, a dear family friend who I had known and was best friends with his kids since kindergarten, was turning 80. He had paddled the 90 mile Adirondack race many years prior and wanted to do it again one last time in his home built solo wood kayak. As his health was failing, when he applied through the then race director, also a good friend of mine, he was told he would not be allowed to do it due to health. So, I stepped in and offered to accompany him in my own solo canoe, which I did not have one suitable for the race at the time. I did not feel my Hornbeck would cut it next to his slek faster kayak. The director agreed. Enter Placidboat works and a new Rapidfire, to be purchased in my wife's name. How do you like your brand new shiny canoe, Hon? So my 80 year old friend and I paddled the race together and had a lot of fun, and the rest is history. My wife has pitted every one of my 29 annual 90 milers, and I figured she deserved “her own” canoe (at least on paper).
Good wife example #2:
When I was invited to race the Yukon River races beginning in 2008 (the YRQ and Y1K), I asked my wife if she would be my personal and voyageur team pit crew. While in Dawson City she found and made friends with a jewelry store owner who specialized in locally found gold nuggets for necklaces. The price for pitting became one nugget for every 500 miles I paddled (the 440 mile YRQ was close enough to 500, and the 1000 mile Y1K counted twice). Several Yukon races and training miles later, she now has a cluster of no less than seven pure gold nuggets. Ouch.
Good wife example #3:
Approaching our 50th anniversary, my wife with arthritis was having trouble getting in and out of her canoe seat. So I got for her a very nice SOT kayak that she was able to handle. Plus, an E-bike so we could continue to peddle together with me on my standard manual bike. She had known that for years I had wanted a PB Shadow, so she called Joe at PB and put a down payment on one.
Very soon after, I mentioned I was looking at other solo boats since Joe said the build list was long and it took a year to get a Shadow. Uh Oh. The cat was out of the bag. Bill Swift then had a demo day in Saranac Lake where I paddled some of his demo solo canoes. I made a deal with Bill for him to deliver a new custom made for me new Cruiser to be personally delivered to my home within a month. My wife said, “oh, just go ahead and get both.”
Then a friend who had just purchased a Savage River Blackwater asked if I would paddle his canoe, since he, a very experienced solo paddler, had trouble keeping it from bias veering off to the left, regardless of his efforts to go straight. Even when I observed his stroke, I could not determine why he had trouble with it with a wanting to make a left turn bias. When I then paddled it, it traveled straight as an arrow for me and I fell on love with it. I soon ordered one of my own. My wife was ok with that too.
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Too true. I believed myself the first time I said it, even if she knew better.Yeah, I told that fib too. We have understanding wives.
That said, you can only paddle one boat at a time, so I do think I should offload at least one or two. I can just never decide which.
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Yesterday I took a 53" straight along with my 51" Black Bart. For me the straight shaft is ineffective for single side correction strokes. On calm water I can make the boat turn very gently using a J or C stroke but it's so weak it wouldn't work in much wind or current. If I do a big sweeping C and put the blade under the boat the paddle shaft hits the bubble on the boat. If I do a J with an exaggerated kickout at the end the boat turns a little where a river boat would do a 180 with less encouragement. The part I really disliked was that the boat did not respond at all to a slight bow draw at the catch...the bow does not skid to obey the paddle.
On the upside the straight felt just fine for cruising and I learned that you can make an Advantage go sideways quite well by sculling.
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