I think wrapping a canoe around rocks in rapids has damaged many a non-foam cored boat as well.
Alan
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Happy Incorporation of Hudson's Bay Co. (1670) 🍁🦫🪓
I think wrapping a canoe around rocks in rapids has damaged many a non-foam cored boat as well.
Alan
Sure it has But to fix styrofoam is about like gluing running cats. Gotten wet it literally sloughs off little beadies. You have to work from the inside
http://www.ehow.com/how_7890709_repair-foam-core-boat.html
And who has an oven to mold the shape of the damaged core? You can fix a damaged carbon and kevlar layer way easier without having to mind oven molding anything.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7890709_repair-foam-core-boat.html
And who has an oven to mold the shape of the damaged core? You can fix a damaged carbon and kevlar layer way easier without having to mind oven molding anything.
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I did some fixing on a Clipper WWII that have been wrapped on the big salmon river up here!! The foam core was not destroyed but had a big crease in it... It came back 90% could have been 100% but It was my first big fix like that so not perfect!
I did some fixing on a Clipper WWII that have been wrapped on the big salmon river up here!! The foam core was not destroyed but had a big crease in it... It came back 90% could have been 100% but It was my first big fix like that so not perfect!
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First I'd hate to fix a canoe, that I paid $3,000 for !
I'll stick with building my own, and repairing them as needed, because " If you can build them, you can fix them " Not my quote, but have proven it true a few times.
I don't cry when I scratch them ! You'd see me Balling, sitting on the river bank, after I scratched that $3,000 canoe !
Mike ! Build that canoe ! Increase your knowledge, and save some bucks at the same time !
Hey Mister ! Did you build that canoe ? No I paid $3,000 for it .
Jim
I'll stick with building my own, and repairing them as needed, because " If you can build them, you can fix them " Not my quote, but have proven it true a few times.
I don't cry when I scratch them ! You'd see me Balling, sitting on the river bank, after I scratched that $3,000 canoe !
Mike ! Build that canoe ! Increase your knowledge, and save some bucks at the same time !
Hey Mister ! Did you build that canoe ? No I paid $3,000 for it .
Jim
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First I'd hate to fix a canoe, that I paid $3,000 for !
I'll stick with building my own, and repairing them as needed, because " If you can build them, you can fix them " Not my quote, but have proven it true a few times.
I don't cry when I scratch them ! You'd see me Balling, sitting on the river bank, after I scratched that $3,000 canoe !
Mike ! Build that canoe ! Increase your knowledge, and save some bucks at the same time !
Hey Mister ! Did you build that canoe ? No I paid $3,000 for it .
Jim
Totally!! I hate fixing other peoples boats, but the money is sometime good... But I want to go away from it! I want to build a canoe or more lol!
First I'd hate to fix a canoe, that I paid $3,000 for !
I'll stick with building my own, and repairing them as needed, because " If you can build them, you can fix them " Not my quote, but have proven it true a few times.
I don't cry when I scratch them ! You'd see me Balling, sitting on the river bank, after I scratched that $3,000 canoe !
Mike ! Build that canoe ! Increase your knowledge, and save some bucks at the same time !
Hey Mister ! Did you build that canoe ? No I paid $3,000 for it .
Jim
Jim,
Every word you wrote could have come from me!!
I try to not sound like a broken record, but there's no getting around it.
Anyone (yes, ANYONE) with the ability to walk upright, can build a canoe.
Not just a canoe, but a canoe that can rival the performance of the best, state of the art boats available.
And at 1/5 to 1/4 of the cost.
And look so much better than any composite!
So let's recap:
Similar performance
1/4 the cost
Better looking
And lastly, you can't put a price on the pride of ownership!
G
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Guest
I expect I could build one, although the first attempt might not be better looking. But I also know how slowly I work, and it is hard to put a price on having a boat under construction in the shop for 3 years at my age.
I would absolutely want skid plates, preferably Dynel, either factory or DIY.
My leeriness about foam cores comes from cracking a UL kevlar canoe with foam core on a rocky landing amid the waves. Unfortunately there was nothing to do except come in sideway and hop out on the waveward side, lest I got streamrolled. The next waves smashed the loaded canoe up on the rocks and put a 5 inch crack on the foam core bottom.
Fortunately that landing was the take out and I didn’t need to field repair or keep paddling the boat. Fixed in the shop it seems almost as good as new, but I have abused other non-foam-core composite canoes (in heavier layups) in similar or worse fashion with nothing more than gouges and bad scratches.
I accept that it is easier to treat a lighter canoe more gently, but am I really going to unload the boat at every beaver dam, speed bump log and rocky shallows? Probably not. In an honest assessment I am likely to hurt myself atop some beaver dam during that awkward gear disgorgement while lightening my precious eggshell. I know I can repair my boats easier than my body.
If you have minimalist gear in a couple of lightweight packs YMMV.
That sounds like the layup and two-tone I would like, and I’d want a bit bigger boat than the Keewaydin 15. The one time I paddled a Shearwater, admittedly empty in some chop, I was not comfortable with the initial stability. A factory soloized Keewaydin 16 is much closer to my usual preferred dimensional and weight capacity specs.
What I do not recall is the bottom shape of the Shearwater. If it was/is a roundish bottom that would explain a lot. I much prefer a shallow arch or even shallow vee. Shearwater owners please do tell.
I do wish canoe manufacturers would be more specific about hull bottom shapes in their specs. Even better than descriptive words, show me a horizontal bow-on shot of the elevated canoe, so I can visualize the bottom shape and tumble home.
The bird’s eye seat and thwarts layout view down into the hull is good, the side profile shot less informative, but the real magic is below the waterline. Show me that view.
Don't all those layups have a foam core with ribs? It's kind of tough to find a manufacturer that doesn't use a foam core. Hemlock, Millbrook, and who else? I'm sure there are others but I'm not aware of them.
I'm not telling you to go with a foam core. I totally get being leery of them and you've gotta do what makes you comfortable. Just trying to figure out if you're dead set against foam core period or if you just want it in a beefier layup for more protection.
Alan
There is a drawing of an Osprey hull in cross section here... since the Shearwater is described as the Osprey's bigger brother, it could simply be scaled up for more volume but can't say for sure.
http://www.greenval.com/osprey.html
Colden, Placid . In addition to Hemlock.. My old Heron does not have a foam core either...Swift ( 1993) But I think all Swifts now have a foam core
My Monarch is old.. And foam core less. I am not very up to date on modern layups as of this year.
Alan it probably is tough in the Midwest to find a foam coreless canoe as none of these makers have a dealer network, But here in the East with all the events these small one man shops attend we have quite a bit of exposure. You do understand the New York State is the epicenter of canoeing.. especially solo canoeing?
NW PA being so close by is an extension of NYS.. another hotspot.
Placid Boat Works Shadow. But I had a heck of a time fitting a pack like an Ostrom in
There are some Savage canoesthat fit that bill too. But you give up gunwales and I can't figure out a portage yoke for that .
Black water and Deep Creek.
There are some Savage canoesthat fit that bill too. But you give up gunwales and I can't figure out a portage yoke for that .
Black water and Deep Creek.
Alan, are you really just asking hull weight or total boat weight. I can get a glass/Kevlar/carbon with cherry ribs for stiffness well under 40 pounds. It's when I add ash and cherry gunnels, seats, decks,thwarts, handles and yoke that it pushes 55- 60 pounds for a 16' Prospector.
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Millbrook uses foam core. Clipper doesn't
Ok, that's good to know. I guess for some reason I always thought Millbrook was a solid laminate. That would explain a lot as I couldn't figure out how they could get a boat to be stiff enough with so few layers of cloth.
I was thinking the total boat weight.
My Bloodvein 2.0 was a solid laminate and it came in at 43 pounds but that was with carbon over cedar gunwales, carbon thwarts, and carbon/foam seat. A Hemlock Eagle, at 16.5'x35" is 48 pounds in the Premium Light layup. Once you ditch the foam it's hard to get the weight down but the price stays up. I'd think it would be able to survive just about anything a canoe could be expected to survive but then you gotta start asking if the slimmer weight savings over Royalex is worth the money.
http://www.hemlockcanoe.com/eagle.html
Souris River keeps close to 40 pounds in their Quetico 16 and, I believe, only uses foam in the ribs. They get heavy use as rentals in the BWCA and Quetico but from what I hear have a tendency to crack the ribs. Pretty easy repair though and probably not a deal breaker if it happens mid-trip. I think those failures might be more due to abuse than heavy use. I've talked to some people who have used them hard with no issues.
http://www.sourisriver.com/quetico_16.html
Maybe that $300 fixer upper is still available in Ely, Mike. I bet we could make a canoetripping.net supply chain to get it into your hands. I'll be leaving for Arizona in a month and could drop it off with Muskrat in Kansas.
Alan
G
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Colden Starfire? Sweet, big canoe. I know Paul uses no foam and it should come out under that weight. Or Hemlock Eaglet set up for solo-in his sweet prem no foam layup?
Turtle
Turtle
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Part of the reason that smaller makers use no foam is it tends to flatten the hull if laid in flat.. The foam sheets have to be contoured to the hull shape and that requires a special oven for curing the oven into a shape( read money). For round hulls like the Dragon Fly a flat panel would be a disaster.
There is good and bad in foam .. Depends on the hull,, depends on the process( kind of the same song as other materials!)
There is good and bad in foam .. Depends on the hull,, depends on the process( kind of the same song as other materials!)
G
Guest
Guest
I can add, having owned a Osprey forever and paddled a shearwater that they handle very differently. The Osprey acts like a shorter boat, very responsive. Also, my Osprey seems real sensitive to over loading. My Kee 14 actually handles similar weight better than the Osprey. I haven't paddled a Kee 15 ,but it is a scaled up Kee 14, so I assume it's weight carrying would be even better than the 14 with similar, but more sluggish handling. I have considered replacing Osprey with a Kee 15 for heavy load trips. I only do flatwater.
Turtle
Turtle
Aha but Turtle now we get into boat design.. Winters and DY have different approaches..( Winters Osprey) DY ( Kee)
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Maybe we should clarify what is foam... cause I think there might be a few different type out there and some might be better than other for some application...
But I might be wrong cause I don't know much about foam!
In the pictures below, there is "foam" that got send to me by Composites Creation owner Andy as fixing material for my Expedition 16( never needed it so far)
What is it?
Maybe we should clarify what is foam... cause I think there might be a few different type out there and some might be better than other for some application...
But I might be wrong cause I don't know much about foam!
In the pictures below, there is "foam" that got send to me by Composites Creation owner Andy as fixing material for my Expedition 16( never needed it so far)
What is it?
