Gel Coat or Epoxy for Repair?

[GladMax]

How do I know if I need to repair the epoxy, or just the gel coat?
I am new-to-sport, have a new-to-me 2015 Northstar ADK-LT that had 8-10 scratches when I bought it a month ago, now has 30+. One of the new-today scratches has fuzzed Kevlar for 8 of it's 24in.
That one I am sure requires epoxy.
It also may require a patch? When pressed with fingers the hull compresses not with a dent but a crease.
A few other scratches I can feel a decrease in hull thickness. Those might require epoxy?
Abraded areas where the yellow tint is paler, might require epoxy?
Scratches that 303 makes disappear, presumably only gel coat to repair?

 

[Alan Gage]

My opinion is that the only scratches that need any sort of repair are ones where the cloth is showing and even then it usually isn't strictly necessary. I don't worry much about superficial scratches. They happen and the less you worry about them the happier you'll be.

I've never bothered with gel coat. Epoxy has always seemed much easier to deal with. It's hard to say what you need for sure without at least seeing some pictures of the deep scratch. What does the inside of the hull look like in that location? How did it happen?

If there is no real damage to the cloth I'd just sand the area, mix some thickened epoxy, fill the gouge, and wipe the excess flush with the hull.

If you're a perfectionist then you'll have to wait for a response from someone else.

Alan

 

[GladMax]

Yeah, Alan, I am getting the 'let battle scars be' idea. I left river super depressed, but after reading a few posts here I am a bit more OK w the scratches... it had. Not these new ones.
Yes I am a perfectionist. I want my boats beautiful. I go on the water to work with it, not bang into crap.
Here is an overall view of the new, taken at the take-out.

 

[GladMax]

Not sure yet how to insert in row, so...
Here is a close up of the worse one, in the garage.
Good idea to wonder what it looks like from inside. Awful.
And an overall view of the bottom.
Most of these on the bottom I am not super worried about for moment but will want to fix eventually.

 

[GladMax]

and the way it happened was a rock.

 

[GladMax]

Turns out my canoe doesn't have gel coat it simply has resin. I got a few kits from Northstar's 'Repair' page.
One is "Composite Repair Kit." It's description says it is for: "damage to the interior of your composite canoe that shows as white lines or fractures..." I guess that's the white line that shows on interior Alan led me to notice. It would indeed be a fracture to result in a crease deflection under pressure rather than a dent.
I asked this question thinking Gel Coat would come clear as well as colored, and that mine would have it. I'm guessing that the real answer to my question is as Alan said:

the only scratches that need any sort of repair are ones where the cloth is showing

and my cloth, while always showing, is showing the way Alan meant when it is exposed to elements.
I also got their 'Canoe Recoat Kit' to take care of all the scratches, the big ones I put on today and all the fine ones built up in past 10yrs. Yes, I am a perfectionist. I go out to be delicate, on the water like a dragonfly is in the air. The water is to a degree my church, and perhaps you could say I like to be in my Sunday best for it.

 

[Jim Dodd]

It appears to have definitely stressed the glass.
Are you wanting to make it invisible ?
Or just add strength back to the hull ?
I would add a patch of cloth. 6 oz E-glass would be enough,. 2" either side of the crack, on the inside, on the side..
For the outside ?
You could coat the outside scratch, with epoxy, but I doubt it would make it invisible.
Worth a try though.

Jim

 

[Alan Gage]

Just to clarify a little nomenclature:

Your canoe is not made with epoxy but rather a vinylester resin. That's the same thing you're getting with your repair kit. It will work fine but just keep in mind that mixing it is different than epoxy. Don't assume all the advice you read about epoxy will transfer 100% to vinylester.

I would recommend you also purchase some release coated peel ply to put over the repairs you'll be making. This will help blend the edges of the patch will fill the weave of the fiblerglass which will save you a lot of time in sanding. It will also remove the outer layer of sticky vinylester resin in case what they're sending you isn't waxed.

Going forward you would be fine using epoxy to repair this hull. But, if you do make some repairs with epoxy don't try to go over those repairs again with vinylester. Epoxy will stick to nearly anything but vinylester doesn't always like sticking to epoxy.

Alan

 

[GladMax]

Thanks Jim. Your comment has gotten me pondering deeper questions on the pursuit of appearance than I wanted to wonder about myself. I might say I would like to repair this canoe to new as best I can, but that perhaps a painstakingly repaired scratch does look better than no scratches at all.
Its good to know guide of 2in outside.

Thanks Alan. I'll have to look up Release Coated Peel Ply to understand it better. Is that for inside, and also outside, which I understand from kit description is only patched on inside? The scratch has 8in of fuzzed weave puckered out like a nerd coming in for a kiss that the rock cut part way thru.
I'm glad to know I COULD use epoxy. I have a bunch of it, have a bunch of experience using it, this might be the first I've heard of vinylester. Northstar has been GREAT to me as a new canoeist: lots of patience listening and explaining, welcoming me to the cool kids club without requiring a lot of bowing and pandering before admittance. If they've got it I'll get it. But maybe 10yrs into stacked scratch repairs, maybe then I'll start repairing with epoxies I have on hand.

 

[memaquay]

I would echo what Jim said. Patch on the inside, perhaps a coat of epoxy on the outside scratch, just to bury the weave.

 

[GladMax]

Thanks Memaquay. Sounds simple, or at least straightforward. Boy, coming back from river yesterday I felt like sky had collapsed. Now, thanks to this forum and you folks, I feel scratches and repairs are all part of the process.
It's good to be here guys, I am grateful.

 

[Gamma1214]

Boy, coming back from river yesterday I felt like sky had collapsed. Now, thanks to this forum and you folks, I feel scratches and repairs are all part of the process.

Stick around, we'll have you dragging boats across portage trails & bashing into rocks in no time.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with keeping things in nice shape but, yes, scratches and repairs are all part of the games that we play. The extent to which we repair those scratches varies widely but exposed weave should (IMO) be re-buried and visible break lines in the glass should (again, IMO) have a patch to restore hull strength.

(Welcome to the site BTW)

 

[Alan Gage]

Stick around, we'll have you dragging boats across portage trails & bashing into rocks in no time.

That's true. When I joined this forum my canoe looked like this:

20160405_004 by Alan, on Flickr

And now it looks like this:

20161017_002 by Alan, on Flickr

 

[GladMax]

Thank you Gamma.
Alan, I don't even like setting mine down, lightly on river gravel.

 

[stevet]

I understand that…used to be like that. But as I have said here before, a canoe is a tool and tools get used. At least it’s the sort that won’t rust. The wonderful experience of paddling is worth more to me than the scratches. It’s as close to being graceful as I will ever get

 

[Gamma1214]

I don't even like setting mine down, lightly on river gravel.

That's actually one of the reasons that I started building strippers.

My re-entry to canoe tripping was with an 80s-era Sawyer and I hated beating up a vintage boat that was no longer made. Now that I build my own, I can mistreat them with impunity... "I built it so it's nothing special and, if I break it in half, I can just build another" (which I'm going to do anyway... building is addictive... you should try it lol)

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I am new-to-sport

GladMax, welcome to site membership! Feel free to ask any questions and to post messages, photos and videos, and to start threads, in our many forums. Please read Welcome to CanoeTripping and Site Rules! Many of the site's technical features are explained in Features: Help and How-To Running Thread. We look forward to your participation in our canoe community.

I want my boats beautiful.

We like our new cars, trucks and jewelry to remain beautiful, free of scratches and any damage. That's completely natural.

coming back from river yesterday I felt like sky had collapsed. Now, thanks to this forum and you folks, I feel scratches and repairs are all part of the process.

But canoes are not cars, trucks or jewelry. The bottom of canoe is much more akin to the tires of a car or the soles of hiking boots—parts that are intended to be subject to friction, scrapes and impacts, and which eventually will show signs of wear.

You can minimize wear by learning intermediate and advanced flat water and whitewater skills via instruction, by always wet-footing in and out of canoes, by never paddling in any rocky or scratchy places (which will probably sacrifice a lot of nice paddling venues and fun), or by acquiring a whole batch of canoes made of different materials for different paddling purposes. Or by just keeping your canoe as a pristine and virgin "garage queen" and never using it.

As scratches and other wear inevitably accumulate over the years on a normally used canoe, structural damage can be mitigated by fiberglass patches, coats of epoxy or even paint, and skid plates on worn stems. You've gotten experienced repair advice already.

The water is to a degree my church, and perhaps you could say I like to be in my Sunday best for it.

Sorry you got some scratches so quickly, but it's normal not fatal. You can still enjoy spiritual water experiences in your scratched-bottom canoe. You don't see the bottom while paddling, just as you don't see your tires while driving, your boot soles while walking, or the possibly grungy bottom of your church pew while communing.

 

[ppine]

In 45 years of repairing all kinds of canoes I have used marine epoxy. Any zones of weakness get fiberglass or kevlar cloth and epoxy. I cannot remember ever repairing gelcoat.

But I have never had any fancy late model canoes with pretty gel coat. I like Alan Gage's before and after photos. In the West, the good rivers are full of rocks and gravel. There is not much sand and silt around due to the gradients. Canoes that get used are going to show some wear. I like to use epoxy to smooth them out and make repairs. Then I do a little sanding and paint them. Painting is not always required.

 

[Jim Dodd]

I omitted, something we builders take for granted.
Lightly sand, before applying a cloth patch.
You need this for a mechanical bond.

As Alan stated Peel ply over a patch, will save you finish time and epoxy.

Years ago I purchased some densely woven Polyester cloth, at Walmat, that worked also.
It pulled off fine on a Test piece. Good to try things on a test piece.

Skipping the Peel ply is not a problem, it just needs an extra coat or two to fill the weave.

Being on the inside ? One coat of Marine epoxy is enough.

Good Luck on the repair !

Jim

 

[ErktheRed]

When I first joined this forum I had just bought or was about to buy an old michigan made canoe, in relatively good shape for its age. I had repaint questions, epoxy, clear coat, and upgrade questions. Then I ended up getting another canoe, a used NWI7 from North Star and had more questions, especially with a vinyl ester re-coat. I was hesitant to get it scratched. Scratches came, the tears lessened. The scrapes on the side always get me though, still. I had good paddling and semi fearless repair skills before joining but after reading, asking questions and learning from everyone, I feel so much more confident and capable to dabble in repairs on expensive to me canoes. And drag over beaver damns or hit rocks. The community here, even with the differences we can have, is an awesome place to be apart of and the schooling never ends. This is what the paddling community is about! Advice, laughs, learning, relationships and a little bs. It’s weeded out of the actual crap that often occurs online, there’s no s**t talk. It’s level headed communication and back n forth conversations.