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What adhesive to use on Tuf-Weave?

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I have a couple of Wenonah canoes in "tuf-weave" and I'd like to add some D-rings to the interior for securing gear. What type of adhesive should I be using? Alao, any recommendations on the best place to purchase the materials?

PS ... or would it be better to use the kind that would be attached with rivets?
 
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My first instincts would be to use Gflex epoxy. West Marine sells it.

My last d-ring for gear setup was to take 4 d-rings and put 2 on each side. Positioned in the chines some distance apart, I then ran cord tautly between them. Now you can quickly clip gear to the cord on each side and the gear stays on the bottom if clipped to both sides.
 
Clipper Canoe (aka Western Canoe Kayak) has a complete gear lashing kit using hard plastic D-rings patches that are much smaller than the round vinyl ones. They recommend 3M Scotch Weld for fiberglass canoes.

Wilderness_Lashing_System_Kit__69815.1473378468.jpg



You can also just buy the plastic D-ring patches alone, which are very inexpensive ($1.50 Canadian). The prices seem to vary depending on which of the company's two sites you are on. I'd call. They are very helpful.

http://www.clippercanoes.com/lashing/

http://westerncanoekayak.com/wilderness-lashing-kit-with-straps-and-buckles/
 
Thanks. Those are inexpensive d-rings!

I wonder if JB PlasticWeld would work for this. Claims to bond vinyl, fiberglass, PVC, etc. Shouldn't be too much stress on gear tie down points.
 
I've been using 3/4" nylon webbing epoxied to the hull and covered in a layer of 6oz. fiberglass. I just leave a small loop sticking up in the center to run cord through but it would probably be easier to just put a d-ring on there instead. I have a few different thicknesses. Obviously the thinner the nylon the easier it is to get a nice finished product. For some lightweight tie downs that I don't expect to ever see a real load I used grosgrain ribbon and that was real smooth. I've also used some heavyweight nylon and that was a bit uglier. This last time I found a middle of the road thickness that I think will work out well.

I use superglue gel to hold the nylon in place, just takes a dab. Then start slathering on the epoxy. Let it soak in and add more. Repeat this a couple times. Brush some on underneath the webbing but be careful to not pull the superglue loose. Lay a piece of fiberglass over each end and cover with peel ply. Add more resin to spots that look dry. Leaves a nice transition to the hull that needs just a light sanding to blend in. There will invariably be a few spots where the peel ply left a void. You can either fill that with thickened epoxy and sand it smooth or shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well". I'm usually in the "oh well" camp.

No peel ply would work too. You'll either need to add more resin to fill the weave later or live with a less aesthetically pleasing finished product.

So far this has worked well for me but I've never been in a situation where the strength of the tie downs was really tested.

Alan
 
I've been using 3/4" nylon webbing epoxied to the hull and covered in a layer of 6oz. fiberglass. I just leave a small loop sticking up in the center to run cord through but it would probably be easier to just put a d-ring on there instead. I have a few different thicknesses. Obviously the thinner the nylon the easier it is to get a nice finished product

Alan

That's clever! I have all kinds of spare webbing, plastic d-rings, and of course epoxy.

So, add a little fiberglass and wait for the day a boat project calls me to do some outfitting. My d-ring inventory is down to one, and that tip creates some new opportunities.

Thanks!
 
I use superglue gel to hold the nylon in place, just takes a dab. Then start slathering on the epoxy. Let it soak in and add more. Repeat this a couple times. Brush some on underneath the webbing but be careful to not pull the superglue loose. Lay a piece of fiberglass over each end and cover with peel ply. Add more resin to spots that look dry. Leaves a nice transition to the hull that needs just a light sanding to blend in.

Is the fiberglass needed for strength, or is it mostly cosmetic?
 
I've been using 3/4" nylon webbing epoxied to the hull and covered in a layer of 6oz. fiberglass. I just leave a small loop sticking up in the center to run cord through but it would probably be easier to just put a d-ring on there instead. I have a few different thicknesses. Obviously the thinner the nylon the easier it is to get a nice finished product. For some lightweight tie downs that I don't expect to ever see a real load I used grosgrain ribbon and that was real smooth. I've also used some heavyweight nylon and that was a bit uglier. This last time I found a middle of the road thickness that I think will work out well.

I use superglue gel to hold the nylon in place, just takes a dab. Then start slathering on the epoxy. Let it soak in and add more. Repeat this a couple times. Brush some on underneath the webbing but be careful to not pull the superglue loose. Lay a piece of fiberglass over each end and cover with peel ply. Add more resin to spots that look dry. Leaves a nice transition to the hull that needs just a light sanding to blend in. There will invariably be a few spots where the peel ply left a void. You can either fill that with thickened epoxy and sand it smooth or shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well". I'm usually in the "oh well" camp.

No peel ply would work too. You'll either need to add more resin to fill the weave later or live with a less aesthetically pleasing finished product.

So far this has worked well for me but I've never been in a situation where the strength of the tie downs was really tested.

Alan

That is how Millbrook boats does all the anchors in is boats and the way I'll do them in my new boat!
 
I have bonded quite a few vinyl patch backed D rings into composite boats using vinyl adhesive such as Vynabond. Vynabond is no more but Vinyl-Tec 2000 is widely available in Canada, and HH-66 is sold in the US and seems to work well.

Glassing in nylon loop anchors is certainly an alternative if you have epoxy and fiberglass on hand. I would recommend fraying and splaying out the ends of the nylon loops to get a better bonding surface.

The type of molded plastic anchors that are now sold by Western Canoe and Kayak, and used to be sold by Voyageur, were quite popular back in the day. Some folks thought they promoted cracking of Royalex canoes but I don't think it would be an issue with stiffer composite boats. There are many, many products sold by 3M that go by the name Scotch-Weld. The adhesive that used to be recommended for these anchors was/is a two part urethane adhesive with the 3M product number 3535. It is getting hard to find and is rather expensive when you can find it:

http://www.skygeek.com/3m-021200-20...aign=froogle&gclid=CI_VqOzk2dICFQeBaQod5gIHrQ

I asked Marlin Bayes what adhesive he uses to bond vinyl backed anchors and outfitting in his composite Clipper Duraflex canoes. He uses vinyl adhesive (Vinyl-Tec 2000).

You can certainly use G Flex or some other epoxy to bond in vinyl backed D rings, and I know some whitewater boater who do this for maximum durability, but it results in a rather permanent installation, so I wouldn't plan on removing the anchors. Also, G Flex and other epoxies do not result in an immediate tack bond. You need to tape the patches into place until the epoxy sets so they don't slide out of position. It is also a good idea to weight the patch lightly with a sand or water-filled bag so as to avoid air voids under the patch.
 
I have bonded quite a few vinyl patch backed D rings into composite boats using vinyl adhesive such as Vynabond. Vynabond is no more but Vinyl-Tec 2000 is widely available in Canada, and HH-66 is sold in the US and seems to work well.

Thanks. Looks HH-66 is readily available and relatively inexpensive.
 
I have a interesting field test soon to be underway.

1/2 of a vynabond adhered d-ring has failed and was flopping about. I cleaned things up and used g-flex to reattach it to the royalex hull. Waited til the glflex got tacky, and then pressed in place with about 20 lbs of sand.

So next WW trip will put both materials to test.
 
Vinyl adhesives often do fail after a number of years. I usually just clean up the patches and reattach them with vinyl adhesive. G Flex will result in a more permanent installation. If only half the patch was loose, don't be surprised if the other half gives way in the near future.
 
Vinyl adhesives often do fail after a number of years. I usually just clean up the patches and reattach them with vinyl adhesive. G Flex will result in a more permanent installation. If only half the patch was loose, don't be surprised if the other half gives way in the near future.

I have had good, long lasting results using melt-your-RX-boat-if-improperly-applied Vynabond. I’m not sure that stuff is made anymore. Other “vinyl adhesives” are still available, but I ’m not sure if those actually chemically melt/bond to the vinyl the way Danger Will Robinson Vynabond did.

I always have G/flex in the shop, and I know that stuff holds tenaciously to both RX and composite hulls. Poly too, if applied with proper prep.

The other advantage of G/flex is that I’m not facing that oh-crap, I was a little off alignment, instant stuck adhesion, and have time to reposition the pad before covering it with wax paper and sandbag weights for the night.

A vinyl pad D-ring is, to my mind and purposes, a get it right the first time permanent addition to the hull. I have never moved one once installed. In most applications I prefer Northwater’s nylon double D’s, which I know will not eventually tidal/salt water use. And I can afixed two straps or lines pulling in opposite directions.

http://northwater.com/collections/d-rings-anchor-rings/products/1-inch-double-d-ring-anchor

I am convinced that the finishing application technique for installing D-ring pads, or any other vinyl pads, is to seal the edge of the pad perimeter after as they are initially adhered. A bead of G/flex, or even Plumber’s Goop, around the raised edge of the pad will lessen the abrupt transition and help prevent water and grit infiltration along the edges, especially if the pads are in a location subject to sheer forces sliding gear (or feet) back and forth.

Those sheer forces will peel against even the wee raised edge of a vinyl pad over time. Minicel pads, being taller/thicker, even more so. Once the edge of a pad starts to fail/lift the re-adhesion issues only increase, including getting the dirt/sand/funk/contaminates out from under the pad before re-adhering the lifted parts.

I’m with you on the bet that the other half of Willie’s D-ring pad fails before the G/flexed repair. Who knows with what and how that pad was originally installed. Could have been contact cement, Elmer’s Glue-all or Double-Bubble spittle.

I’d be tempted to see how tenaciously the rest of Willie’s partially lifted pad is adhered, and maybe peel with whole thing off and start again. If the pad lifts off without undue force that was the way to proceed.
 
Pretty much all vinyl adhesives contain methylethylketone and do have the potential to damage a Royalex hull. The key to avoiding this is to make sure that the adhesive has degassed before approximating the patch to the hull. I usually speed this process up by wafting a heat gun over the patch, and you will see small bubbles form as it degasses. After applying the patch to the hull, don't invert the boat, but leave the patch topmost so that if the adhesive has not fully degassed it will do so through the patch, not into the hull.

Vynabond was discontinued by the maker a couple of years ago. You can sometimes find someone selling a 1 ounce tube of old/new stock on ebay for a ridiculous price. HH-66 seems to give good results but degasses much more quickly than Vynabond did. I never bought into the "chemical bonding" of Vynabond. If there is a chemical bond it is about one molecule thick. I have removed at least one hundred vinyl patches and anchors from Royalex canoes, usually with no damage to the underlying vinyl layer which seems as if it would be impossible if there was a true chemical bond. I have reused most of those anchors and patches in other boats or the same boat.

I know many whitewater boaters who gave up on vinyl adhesive and went to G Flex because of the propensity of vinyl anchors bonded in with vinyl adhesive to fail at very inopportune times, like in the middle of a difficult run. I stuck with vinyl adhesive because of the ability to remove the anchors if necessary without severely damaging the boat. This can be done by carefully warming the patch with a heat gun, getting under the edge with a putty knife, then peeling the patch off while continuing to carefully warm it. I have found that if a half dozen anchors say, were bonded in with vinyl adhesive at the same time, if one fails the rest will likely go within a few weeks or months, and sometimes sooner. A good example was a roto-molded saddle I had in a whitewater boat that was secured to the hull with 5 vinyl anchor patches and straps. I took the boat to east Tennessee without closely examining the outfitting and found when I got there, one of the patches had come loose and another was starting to. The other three seemed OK and I thought I would get buy. I put on the Tellico River and after the first mile and a half, all the other anchors had given way, and I was basically sitting on a saddle loose in the boat.

And yes, if I find a patch coming partially undone, I will remove it entirely in the manner described, clean it up, and rebond. it.
 
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