Urban Boat Builders skin on frame canoes

[JeremyA]

I'm looking at a used one later today, does anyone know anything about them, or SOF canoes in general? I'm looking for something light enough to port, as our current boats are of the 80lbs poly variety and I'd like to open up my options for trips in the coming years. I'm on a budget, but I don't want to buy something that won't hold up either. There's precious little information on these boats, even on the manufacturer's website. Thanks!

 

[Muskrat]

You could build one yourself for MUCH cheaper, but your money to them goes towards a good cause. What kind of waters will you be using this on? They dont list any specs of the skin type or weight. That would be the first info I would get from them, also what they coat the skin with. Don't expect it to be a river canoe. Depending on the frame and skin it will most likely be very light and somewhat fragile. Skin on frames are susceptible to abrasion and puncture where the skin lays against a frame or rib. The skin needs to stretch and flex to avoid damage. It would be best for deep water and could be the lightest canoe for the length you'll find.

 

[JeremyA]

I'm looking at buying one secondhand, asking $700 in barely used condition. I would like it for lake tripping, I have a pair of poly Mad River Journey 156's for river trips. I did call UBB to ask about construction, and they're using ballistic nylon skin from skinboats.com and a two part urethane coating. She couldn't tell me what weight the nylon was, but assured me that they were built for durability.

 

[Alan Gage]

I've built a SOF kayak and know they can take more abuse than most people think. But if I wanted a canoe for tripping and had $700 so spend I'd shop around for a used Kevlar or Royalex. I don't know where you're located but the other day I picked up an Old Town Penobscot 17 for $350. I saw another one listed on Minneapolis Cragslist the other day for around $600. I think they're around 65 pounds.

Plenty of old Wenonah Tuffweave, fiberglass, and kevlar boats in that price range in the upper midwest. The Sundowner 18 is a large volume tripping boat that turns up fairly often and never goes for very much money, I think just because it's an older model most people aren't familiar with.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

I assume this is the one you're looking at: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/5774039189.html

Here's the Penobscot: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/boa/5821005413.html

They're asking $750 but this time of year is a buyer's market. But if it's as nice as they say $750 isn't a bad price.

Here's a Sundowner: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/5747626005.html

In fiberglass it won't be real light, probably 60-65 lbs. Looks like an old one too, I'd be a little concerned about the fiberglass getting brittle.

Some lightweight Kevlar in this ad but no prices: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/boa/5814993239.html

Alan

 

[JeremyA]

Oddly enough, that is the one. However, it's not located in MN. Central Wisco is a bit of a CL dead zone, so he's probably just cross posting there. I would like something on the lighter end, so probably not looking at royalex. I've been watching and just haven't seen anything in kevlar come up much under $1200. I may give a call to that outfitter in Clearwater, but it's a 5 hour drive from me.

 

[JeremyA]

Well I had a look today, unfortunately this one was a pretty poor example. He was willing to go down to $600, but it's just too ugly, runs everywhere in the urethane and some pretty sloppy woodwork. Holy crap was it light though.

 

[stripperguy]

45 lbs for an 18 ft canoe is not ultra-light.
I have an 18 ft stripper that weighs 41 lbs...and it cost less than $500 to build.
If building your own boat is not in your plans, you surely can find a quality used composite that's light enough for you to carry for a few miles.
Should you decide to build your own boat, there are many here that can virtually mentor you, if you're interested.
Here's a look at that 41 lb stripper...
View attachment XOYrhWZ-A15hn0EUYl8o9jHl5eOtjnYKcZvBzm7Wr2C9y2BZjY_OgXuquWIm98TecmlWXaPtp7-Gv6hoEe2Wkt8TLnRw8PyS8Hmt

 

[JeremyA]

I think my 15'6" Journeys weigh 83lbs, so it's ultra light to me! I would love to build my own, but I don't think it's something realistic for me to undertake at this time in my life. I have spent a good deal of time living vicariously through the build threads here. Luckily I'm in no hurry, so I'll continue to watch for a good deal. I was hoping to find something this Fall as it is usually more of a buyers market, the right one just hasn't come up.

 

[yellowcanoe]

You can find used Kevlar boats for a grand if you lurk patiently and have a wide hunt area
I have a Wenonah Odyssey at 43 lbs 18.5 feet. Similar to a MN II. And a Souris River Wilderness at 18 feet 45 lbs
SOF is not the most durable for dragging over logs and beaver dams

And the use of nylon baffles me. Most SOF builders use aircraft Dacron which shrinks when heat applied
Nylon melts

 

[Alan Gage]

Kevlar Jensen 18 for $700 just listed: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/5828599643.html

I believe it's essentially the same hull as the Minn II but with lower shear. Probably not for everyone but lots of people have tripped out of them.

Alan

 

[Muskrat]

I agree with everyone else, look for a used composite. Set up a craigslist alert for the term canoe and add every city as far as you're willing to drive. Be patient and you'll find what you're looking for. You have 6 months or so to look now anyway.

YC, Nylon can be shrunk to the frame, it just requires moist heat. Btw nylon and polyester have essentially the same melting point 484°F and 482°F respectively. Also, I think most SOF builders today are using heavier fabrics than aircraft dacron wether that is poly or nylon. Nylon has the ability to stretch much more before yielding. With the proper coating that can flex with it, it is more resilient to puncture than poly.

 

[dogbrain]

Just as an aside, I stopped and talked to some of these urban boatbuilder kids in the BWCA last August who had built the boats they were in. I personally would have no problem using a skin on frame boat for lake/portage trips, but would be a little more careful than normal. I've built a skin on frame kayak and am surprised how tough it is. I mounted a sheet of the nylon fabric on an old seat frame and put the same urethane coating on it to test its strength. I should have video taped my efforts at puncturing the skin. I could do it with a sharp knife, but a screwdriver pretty much just bounced off. I would say that these boats are probably the most susceptible to damage when not in the water, like when you're portaging and you trip and the boat goes flying into a stump or big rock. It's the wood frame itself that would be my biggest concern, but it would all be easy to repair in the field anyway with some artificial sinew and a bit of wood lying on the ground. Similar to any boat, long term abrasion would be another problem that can probably be taken care of with the addition of some type of skid plates.

Back to the kids, they all looked like urban kids and unfortunately were headed to a really long portage with only an hour of sunlight left with big storm clouds approaching. I can remember thinking to myself that they are in for a lesson today. Later, while hanging out under my tarp, I was thinking there's no way they made it to the other end with all their stuff before dark.

Mark

 

[yellowcanoe]

http://gaboats.com/boats/snowshoetraveler18.html

Interesting they use dacron.

I have applied dacron on my boats. Canvas substitute (filler is different) One boat is 20 years old and one is 16.Dacron is tough but I would not go after with it with a knife. Mine do OK as there is cedar planking in back of the ceconite. Rocks vs boats just result in scuffing of the paint. That is easy to fix.

I would think..( thinking of my SOF ) Pakboat 170 that the long length would result in a lot of flex unless you have a heavy load. Our Pakboat hogs up in the middle when unloaded. ( Its a skin over aluminum frame.

The wood dacron 16 footer is under 50 lbs.. the 14 at 36. I wonder how much savings a SOF construction would gain over a traditional plank and dacron design.
The dacron vs canvas is a huge savings in weight.

For some people a light SOF is the only way to go. I have a friend with a back that is limited to 20 lbs so her 8 lb Sweet Pea gets her on the water.

 

[Canotrouge]

Interesting that such a big canoe is rated only at 600lbs for capacity!! I wonder why?

 

[Muskrat]

We should probably have a new thread for this, but whatever...

I don't know much about cedar canvas canoes, what is the fabric weight oz./sq. yd. usually used? Or whatever canvas is measured in (ducks?), I can convert. Aircraft dacron/ceconite, trade names for polyester, comes maximum in those brands at 3.5 oz/yd^2. That is very light. Consider aircraft don't typically grind their surfaces on the ground and they wont certify less than 2.7 oz/yd^2.

Geodesic aerolite boats are a minority at best in SOF boat construction. Look at any other seller or builder of SOFs, George Dyson, Skin Boat School, etc, they don't use any fabric less than 8 oz/yd^2. Dyson's kayaks that he actually took up and down the upper west coast used 26 oz/yd^2 nylon.

SOF and fabric over solid cedar are not comparable. There are different forces at play with fabric with a solid backing vs free fabric in tension.

Pakboats are designed to be extremely flexible and the skin which I garauntee is much more than 3 oz/yd^2 is separated from the frames by foam so it doesn't have the inherent weakness where skin can be pinched against a solid frame.