Short Encounters with Bear and Mountain Lion

[Glenn MacGrady]

The bottom video of a cat is unfortunate because the poor guy in the video is scared to death. You can tell by his voice and his heavy breathing. Best to stop, get big and get loud. Firing a couple of warning shots is a great idea, but backing up confuses the message to the lion. I like to swear at them in a loud voice, throw rocks, sticks, etc. Put down your phone and scare the freakin mtn lion away.

That's actually not a stalk--rather it's a defensive behavior protecting its cub from the person (cub is visible at the immediate start of the vid). The widespread forelimbs and the slaps pretty much gives it away--bears do the same thing when showing defensive behavior. I'd guess the retreat is due to the adult moving the person sufficiently far away from the cub that it felt that the cub was not in danger.

Are these opinions contradictory? When being confronted by a constantly approaching big cat, should one stop and be aggressive and attack with rocks, or move slowly away? Or is the person supposed to adjust his/her behavior by somehow figuring out whether that big cat is protecting young (perhaps unseen) as opposed to stalking the person for purposes of hunting attack?

 

[ppine]

Good question. I am no lion expert, but I have been around hundreds of bears.
Mason has been able to interpret the lions behavior. We should listen to him. I missed the ques that he could see plainly.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

Good question. I am no lion expert, but I have been around hundreds of bears.
Mason has been able to interpret the lions behavior. We should listen to him. I missed the ques that he could see plainly.

Mason felt the second (6 minute) big cat video I posted with the hiker backing away was of a cat protecting young. I don't think anyone has made that interpretation of the first video of the guy with a Glock backing away. I'm just wondering if there is a standard recommendation for all approaching cats (or bears), or whether you do something different if you think young protection vs. hunt stalking is the situation.

 

[Mason]

Are these opinions contradictory? When being confronted by a constantly approaching big cat, should one stop and be aggressive and attack with rocks, or move slowly away? Or is the person supposed to adjust his/her behavior by somehow figuring out whether that big cat is protecting young (perhaps unseen) as opposed to stalking the person for purposes of hunting attack?

The critical thing here is to be able to determine the intent of the cougar and direct your response, just like you're supposed to respond differently to black and grizzly bear attacks (fight back if it's a black, go submissive if it's a griz (until it starts eating you))--you need to know which it is before responding. Most adverse cougar interactions I've seen (via vid), the cougar is either stalking or "laying in wait" of the person. In that case, being aggressive is the appropriate defense--you're showing the cougar that there will be a real cost to it if it attacks. The vid you posted was very illuminating to me (I had seen it soon after it came out), as the cougar was not displaying any of the typical predatory behaviors (not full on charge, not using terrain for cover, etc.), but was mostly displaying how bad it was. The wide forelimbs and paw slaps immediately identified the behavior to me--this was a pretty unique vid, and to me, quite enlightening, as it showed the similarities between bear and cougar defensive behavior.

 

[Odyssey]

I'm learning a lot here.

 

[Mason]

HI Mason. Thanks for chiming in.
Can you explain the level of fear that the public seems to have of mountain lions?
Can you explain why the same public tends to dismiss the threat from black bears?
It is very puzzling to me.

This is purely conjecture, but it's probably that people see black bears all over the place, and no harm comes of it--garbage bears, urban bears, picnic table bears, etc. etc. Also, in all bear attack discussions, there is the emphasis that most black bear interactions, people are rarely injured (as opposed to grizzly/brown bear interactions). Of course, in black bear attacks where people are injured, it is a predatory action where the bear wants to eat you. These are extremely rare, but they do take place, usually in remote areas (though there are exceptions).

With cougars, people rarely see them (and so they are the wilderness unknowns?), and people are killed by them, probably at a higher frequency than black bear fatalities. Mt. bikers, runners, especially are taken. Another thing to add is that cougars are solely meat-eaters--you won't find them grazing in meadows like you will black bears. They're looking for prey, and possibly you're it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about either (as far as getting killed or eaten). But, I am pretty aware when I'm out in the woods, and if I see one, I evaluate its behavior/intentions by close observation, and I've had the training and experience to probably do the right thing. I've been charged by grizzly bears, tried to get nuisance black bears to charge me (so I could dose it with pepper spray), and climbed up trees after cougar to get a better shot with my dart pistol (ahhh, youth!).

Maybe we should talk about wolves next? (That's a joke, son.)

 

[Mason]

Mason felt the second (6 minute) big cat video I posted with the hiker backing away was of a cat protecting young. I don't think anyone has made that interpretation of the first video of the guy with a Glock backing away. I'm just wondering if there is a standard recommendation for all approaching cats (or bears), or whether you do something different if you think young protection vs. hunt stalking is the situation.

I watched the Glock video again, and now I'm not so sure it was predatory. At the first, the cougar was approaching the fellow pretty directly, suggesting a predatory attack. However, immediately before the fellow fired his handgun, the cougar begins to display the foot up, wide stance of the obviously defensive cougar in the long video. The fellow fires immediately, and the cougar backs off, so it's hard to tell. The cougar's sort of nonchalant watching after two shots fired could be interpreted as either a stand-down of an attack, or of the lion standing there telling the guy that "keep going back away from my cubs (hidden in the sage), and I'm watching you". For me, more information (e.g. more footage) is needed to more accurately evaluate the cougar's intent. For example, if the fellow stopped backing up and got aggressive, and the cougar backed off, then that would suggest predatory behavior. If it didn't back off, then you wonder why--does it really want to eat you, or does it really want you away from its kittens. Were there any kittens? (Did the fellow see kitten tracks while traipsing around? Did he see kittens that he doesn't mention?). If no kittens, then probably predatory. Regardless, PUT THE danged PHONE DOWN and deal with the situation! But, it certainly is entertaining and educational to see the footage. Nowhere on my tombstone will they write "AND HE GOT 10,000 HITS ON YOUTUBE!"

Ain't wildlife behavior grand!

 

[ppine]

This is a good example of why I like this group. I have worked with some good wildlife biologists over the years and they could always answer my questions. One was from Forsyth, MT and went to MSU. For a lot people, carrying fire arms is their answer for dealing with predators. Take the time to learn their behavior and interpret their intent. Body language is everything with wildlife. I have learned a lot about body language by working with horses and mules for 50 years.

When I lived in Wyoming, I asked our resident big game biologist where a good place to hunt antelope was since I had my Dad, two brothers and two family friends were flying in for the big hunt in eastern Wyo. The first morning in Shirley Basin, from our camp in a stand of aspens we had coffee around the fire and could see 2,000 antelope. We got 6 good ones and some went to the taxidermy shop in Laramie. When I was unloading, the shop owner asked me how much I charged for antelope hunts. I owed a lot of our success to my friend that gave me great advice.

 

[Odyssey]

"Body language is everything with wildlife." Yes. They reflect behaviour. Learning wild behaviour is most important, I'm still learning.
Both our daughters are biologists, tho' only one remains in that discipline. I should've spent more time quizzing them and learning. One volunteered in an avian rehab centre. I was allowed a few brief visits, the emphasis being to keep human-wildlife interactions to a minimum so as not to alter wild behaviours. The corvids were most interesting. Unfortunately, 2 crows had been captured and raised as "pets", before being rescued, the result of which was a strange adulterated blend of wild and domestic. It was sad really. We would stand hidden watching them go about their natural foraging routines and communicating. Their intense intelligence is humbling to see. But then they'd switch to roll playing to perform for food, knowing treats might be available. "Tricks" were never rewarded, to try to erase this human imprint, but the damage had already been done. Just like campsite bears, we can't really blame wildlife for the learned behaviours they accumulate. They are survival skills.
Our encounters with predators are another story. Playing on the risk/reward reasoning by the scary mammal is unnerving but necessary. A discouraging blast of scent or sound hopefully will tip their future behaviour in our favour. I've never been in this situation, thankfully, but have learned a great deal here. Interpreting the difference between defensive and predatory behaviour is crucial. Thanks Mason.

 

[Gamma1214]

What causes the retreat?

Lots of great insight into behavior in this thread but, I saw a follow-up video to the mother / baby one and the guy claimed that he managed to pick up a rock & throw it at the cat. While I doubt that a rock might be enough to scare her, it my have been enough to break her concentration & think about getting back to the cub(s).

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

I saw a follow-up video to the mother / baby one and the guy claimed that he managed to pick up a rock & throw it at the cat. While I doubt that a rock might be enough to scare her, it my have been enough to break her concentration & think about getting back to the cub(s).

The trail he was on was full of rocks. I kept wondering why he didn't throw lots of rocks instead of filming. I would have looked for some sort of big stick for a club, too.

 

[Gamma1214]

Yes, but I'd have been (as I suspected he was) VERY careful about bending over. Cats can cover distance faster than just about any critter on the planet and you want to look big & intimidating. Hard to do that when bent over. (at least that was MY assumption when I watched it)

 

[JohnSand]

I think at the end he did throw rocks, which ended the encounter. If you watch the last bit, the camera seems to angle and lower, you can hear the sound of gravel scraping. When the cat runs off, there is a visible gouge across the trail as if he grabbed a handful. At one point I think I heard him say "Where is my gun?". At home, in a pack, or not purchased yet?

 

[Odyssey]

Oh, okay. I might be missing something, but when he reaches down, probably for a stick, the cougar takes off running.
That's when I thought "that cougar has been trained to play fetch!".

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

The short bear video in my OP has been removed by Youtube. (Did we cause that?) So, I'll replace it with some hunters in a river raft who get charged by a brown bear. I recall posting a shorter version of this a few years ago, but this clip has more info about the hunter's gun jamming after his first warning shot in front of the charging bear.

 

[ScottS]

I lived for 27 years in the NW. I agree with Mason's interpretations. I am skeptical of the cougar video and feel that we are not seeing the entire story. I suspect that the video is in part, a set up, either by baiting a cat or intruding on a known den or kill site. That just wasn't stalking behavior. It was defensive - get out of my space aggression. And don't get me started on the cell phone/hand gun nonsense.
I did a lot of backcountry mountain biking (and hiking) in the Northwest and during all of those rides, I only saw one cougar, and I am the only one of my dozen MTB friends that ever saw a cougar, although I expect that a few cougar saw us (sightlines are often quite short in the PNW) I was solo when I saw the cougar cross the trail about 50 yards ahead of me. I climbed up on a cedar stump - the 5 ft. high 5 ft diameter ones, and kept a sharp eye out for about 10 minutes, then I walked the next half mile.
I would see a black bear I suppose, about 1 out of every 10 rides. Only two of those spots were worrisome. One time I was alone moving quick on some narrow single track. I popped up out of a ditch at about 15 mph to find a bear's butt about 20 feet in front of me. Fortunately, I scared the heck out of the bear - it didn't even look back to see what was there. I could hear it crashing through the brush at full speed until it got too far away to hear. Got a good fit of nervous laughing out of that. Also experienced the full on adrenaline super-vision. My brain recorded that bear as being about 6 ft across from hip to hip...and bears have the coolest looking white and tan hairs between their toes and pads on the bottom of their hid feet, it was like I was looking through binoculars. Those feet are permanently etched in my memory.
The scary bear happened while riding a cross slope logging road, while solo, of course. A tiny bear cub came running down the hill about 50 yards ahead of me, hit the road and somersaulted a couple times across the road and continued rolling down the hill. I knew this was real bad although I wished I could've just laughed at that little bear taking a flyer. Got off my bike (a bike held over your head makes you look really big, and if need be, I wanted the bike between myself and mamma bear) and walked back about a quarter mile and gave myself a 15 minute time out. A few years ago, someone was killed by a cougar in that same area. 2 people mountain biking, a cougar did the normal from behind stealth attack the first cyclist. 2nd cyclist joined the fight. Cougar started fighting the 2nd rider...and the first rider got up and ran away. Cougar killed the 2nd rider.

 

[ppine]

Famous video Glenn.
These guys did not react to the cubs, They were very lackadaisical. But the warning shot saved their butts. This was a bluff charge.