Rails on M.R. Teton?

[rider1]

Hey guys, need a little help with something. I have an old Mad river 16 ft. Teton that I've been working on and I've noticed that the rails look strange to me. I don't know if their suppose to look this way or not. Looking at them from the end of the canoe, there angled inwards. On all the Old towns that I've had, the rails were flat on the canoe. That makes it easy to add rod holders and such on them. This darn thing is just crazy looking.
If you clamp a rod holder to it, and put a rod in it, the rod stick up over the boat, instead of over the water. Is this the way that there suppose to be or has someone changed them out and done a botched up job? By the way, their vinyl rails.
Any help will be appreciated.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

Sounds boogery. Got a picture?

 

[rider1]

Sounds boogery. Got a picture?

t​I don't have a picture but I'll try to have one tomorrow. The rails are pointing downward toward the bottom of the canoe, I'd say about an angle of 15 degrees.
I think their warped but I really don't know. I'll try to get that pit. up for you later.
Thanks for the interest.

 

[Guest]

The rails are pointing downward toward the bottom of the canoe, I'd say about an angle of 15 degrees.

One way to have induced that inward lean with vinyl gunwales is to have narrower the hull with a shorter yoke and seat frames.

Per a 2000 MRC catalog the Teton was 36 inches wide at the gunwales.

If you set it on a roof rack or sawhorses are the vinyl gunwales flat on the surface or angled?

 

[rider1]

When I bought this canoe it was a miss. The seats were miss matched and the yoke was gone and replaced with a peace of conduit. The hull at the middle was 32 inches and looked like the hull had collapsed in on itself, at one time. Also it had been painted and repainted, camouflaged. The bow had a crack in it, that I didn't see, until I got it home and cleaned the pine strew and dirt and striped the paint off of it. So far I have replaced the yoke with it being 36 inches and fixed the crack in it. With the same seats in it, the rails face down inwards. When it's on the sawhorses, it sets on the out side edges of the rails.
It seems to be worse at the seats and a foot in front and behind them. I have the middle at 36 inches and the rails are flatter now. but about half way from the middle to the back of the seats is the worse. I have no idea as how to get the right width at the seats, or what that width should be.

 

[Peach Canoe]

Yes Mike's right-- it's 36" at center (probably outside hull skin to outside hull skin)-- but check this. Here's a link to a page on the Mad River Teton:

http://www.quintanna.com/mtnsports/m...2/rseries.html

It was manufactured from 2000 through 2002.

I would take the seats out and see if there's some memory left in the hull material (doubtful though), and perhaps it could be coaxed back to its original shape with some spreader bars placed between the gunwales every couple of feet, and a little cautious heating of the upper hull. The gunwale tops at the seats should be approximately the same orientation as at the yoke-- fairly flat.

There's a piece of aluminum in that gunwale that could have been bent, and it may have to be re-bent some. Here's a few photos that look original.

 

[rider1]

Yep, that's her fir sure. I think your right about the rails being bent. that's the only thing that I can tell that might cause them to be that away. Now all I that I need to know is way to go about bending them back without screwing something else up. Maybe a pipe wrench and a rage.

 

[Peach Canoe]

You have the 36-inch dimension at the yoke and the fixed dimension at the decks-- if you could get a couple more reference dimensions along the gunwales you could attempt a re-bend of the rails.

Perhaps Mad River would provide the gunwale spread at the seats, as well as a couple of other locations along the gunwales; I'm sure they have the drawings for the Teton. NOTE EDIT: Mad River has kept no information on the Teton!

With the dimensions in hand, you can make spreaders out of pieces of 2X4s and slide them in between and spread out the gunwales.

 

[Peach Canoe]

I just called Mad River and the nice man said they no longer have records for the Teton. Therefore, gunwale shape and dimensions will have to be taken off another existing example of a stock Teton.

If there's a Teton owner out there, perhaps she or he could log in with some dimensions.

 

[Guest]

The hull at the middle was 32 inches and looked like the hull had collapsed in on itself, at one time. Also it had been painted and repainted, camouflaged.
So far I have replaced the yoke with it being 36 inches and fixed the crack in it. With the same seats in it, the rails face down inwards. When it's on the sawhorses, it sets on the out side edges of the rails.
It seems to be worse at the seats and a foot in front and behind them. I have the middle at 36 inches and the rails are flatter now. but about half way from the middle to the back of the seats is the worse. I have no idea as how to get the right width at the seats, or what that width should be.

If a previous owner narrowed the gunwale width by 4 inches they would have needed to narrow the seat frame as well.

With the new yoke back to 36 inches and the seats still at the narrowed width the sheerline must be wanky.

You will need new seats anyway, so before trying to force the aluminum inserts (if there are such) in the vinyl gunwales into a more level bend you might try taking out the too-narrow seats, pushing the gunwales out level and installing new seat frames in the correct width.

I’d use a full truss seat drop, like these from Ed’s Canoe.

http://www.edscanoe.com/seathanger.html

Ed’s also sells a heavy duty version of those seat drops. Lots of seat choices at Ed’s as well.

http://www.edscanoe.com/canoeseats.html

News seats on truss drops may provide enough strength and rigidity to bring the sheerline back level.

As a final resort you could install a thwart. The Teton has only a yoke keeping the gunwales spread.

 

[rider1]

Wow! great info guys. Last night we had a cold front blow through, with winds 35 to 40 mph, and the temp. fell out from 65, to forty degrees. So after this weather get past us I'll jump back on it.​ I'll let you know how things go.
Thanks to all of you.

 

[Guest]

I think your right about the rails being bent. that's the only thing that I can tell that might cause them to be that away.

Do you know for certain that the vinyl gunwales have aluminum inserts? Many/most vinyl gunwales do, sometimes just a (upside down) L of aluminum, but some have no insert.

If you have drilled new holes in the gunwales there would have been little curlie cues from the aluminum insert.

If you haven’t drilled any new gunwale holes you can check by sticking your hand up under the deck plate. The gunwales end well short of the stem and you can stick a finger in the inwale channel and check for an insert.

 

[rider1]

Mike,
I've drilled some holes in the rails to do a few modifications and so far, I haven't came across any inserts. I've also tried to feel for one, with no success. Today, I took the seats and yoke off and tried to spread the sides out a bit. Everything I've done to date has made no difference. The rails stay the same, no matter how far I spread the sides out. ​I'm just about to the point of thinking, that the rails were made that way, or someone has replaced them and did a bad job putting them on.
I did the best that I could with the darn thing. I added the yoke back, it's at 36 inches in the middle. I then added a new rear seat, and added 3/4 of an inch to each side, to spread the sides out a full, inch and a half more, then what the old seat was. Then, I did away with the old front seat,and added a new thwart and added the same amount of inches to it, put it in where the front seat was. who needs a front seat! lol
Next, I'm going to add another thwart, between the middle and the back seat, for lashing and a bit more support.
After all that, I'm going to stick it in the river, load it down with about a half a ton of concrete blocks, and see if it will float.
If I don't like the way it feels, then I'll bring it back home, put it all back the way it was, and put on the market.
This is what they call buyers remorse!
I'm glad I still have my Old town!

 

[Guest]

I've drilled some holes in the rails to do a few modifications and so far, I haven't came across any inserts. I've also tried to feel for one, with no success.

The Teton may not have had aluminum inserts in the gunwales. It may have been heavy enough poly to start with; it only had that one structural cross piece yoke. Or the previous owner could have replaced the gunwales with no-insert vinyl rails.

If that were the case I’d have to suspect that the Teton a wrapped at some point. Which could explain a lot. Have you noticed any wrapped Royalex wrinkles or white-ish creases on the RX sides? Might also be a reason the hull was painted.

Here’s a test to try. With the hull set gunwales down on your level roof racks do all four gunwales rest on the racks? If one wale is significantly uneven wobbly something is twisted amiss.

Today, I took the seats and yoke off and tried to spread the sides out a bit. Everything I've done to date has made no difference. The rails stay the same, no matter how far I spread the sides out. ​I'm just about to the point of thinking, that the rails were made that way, or someone has replaced them and did a bad job putting them on.

Well heck, I dunno, maybe the Teton came slab sided with gunwale angled recurve. If you have pushed it out to a 36” yoke width incorporating more symmetrical seat width, and the gunwales are still cocked inwards I’d throw in the towel, say WTF, and live with it. Maybe add a utility fore thwart for a level fishing rod attachment base.

I did the best that I could with the darn thing. I added the yoke back, it's at 36 inches in the middle. I then added a new rear seat, and added 3/4 of an inch to each side, to spread the sides out a full, inch and a half more, then what the old seat was. Then, I did away with the old front seat,and added a new thwart and added the same amount of inches to it, put it in where the front seat was. who needs a front seat! Lol

I sure agree about losing the extra seat, but I have no idea of the math for increasing seat width. Maybe move your solo seat further forward and add thwarts bow and stern, losing the portage yoke in lieu of a strap yoke or clamp on.

Next, I'm going to add another thwart, between the middle and the back seat, for lashing and a bit more support.
After all that, I'm going to stick it in the river, load it down with about a half a ton of concrete blocks, and see if it will float.
If I don't like the way it feels, then I'll bring it back home, put it all back the way it was, and put on the market.
This is what they call buyers remorse!
I'm glad I still have my Old town!

I wouldn’t give up. Another thwart, or two, and a better soloized-tandem seat placement might provide an enjoyable purpose built ride. If it is to be a fishing platform the angling outfitting may be paramount.

I gotta ask, 1000 lb of concrete block? Wilderness pillbox?

 

[rider1]

Just joking about the blocks! I'm not hauling no blocks...laughing! I'm not going to worry about the rails any more.
I brought the stern seat up 6 inches, drilled new holes in the rails and installed the seat, put in a, home made black cherry thwart and yoke. Painted the hull, put in a anchor shoot. next to make my three piece cover and I'll be ready for the wilderness! ​Thanks to everyone for the great help.
Have a good day!

 

[rider1]

Well, Mr. Mike, I think I owe you an apology.
You were right all along, I found some small metal shavings when I drilled the new holes for my seat. So, the Teton dose have the inserts. Still though, I think the rails are made with the inward curve. I've checked to see if the canoe was warped, and looks good, no warping that I can tell.
Today, I took it out with all of my camping and fishing gear, plus me, and about 40 lbs. of water in the bow to keep the bow down. That's about 600 lbs. all together. This is the first time that I have had her out. The wind was blowing around 11 to 15 and gusting 25 mph. I had my wife drop me off 20 miles up our local river and told her to pick me up in a few hours at our local landing.
What a great time I had, the wind was at my back and pushed me at a good clip the hole trip. The canoe was a pleasure to paddle and the stability of the Teton, was like no other canoe that I've been in. I'm very pleased and surprised, at how well she handled under a load, and in the winds that we've had today. ​Can't Waite to get her back in the water for a over night trip.
Have a great day!

 

[Guest]

I found some small metal shavings when I drilled the new holes for my seat. So, the Teton dose have the inserts. Still though, I think the rails are made with the inward curve.

Makes sense. Every MRC boat I have worked on had aluminum inserts, but my only experience with poly Mad Rivers is with Discos.

Good it hear it made for a pleasant ride.

I’d be curious see an end-on photo of the Teton showing how the sides are shaped.