On The Unbearable Lightness of Modern Tents

[Uncle_Skwid]

I've never been much of a tarp guy. Not for a primary sleeping shelter, anyway. I mean, sure, string one up to sit under, play banjo under, eat supper under, but when the snow falls and the temperature drops or the creatures slither up from the soil or the skies open up I like the security of a tent. Or maybe the speed of a tent. Or the inside-ness of a tent when waiting out the storm. Which isn't exactly true either. If I'm east coast camping I now prefer the comfort and ease of a hammock, which does incorporate a bit of tarp alchemy, but it's the easy kind where you get to string up a line between two trees and pull the thing taut. And then the hammock gets me up off the ground away from the insidious creepy crawlies. The last tent I bought was in about 1998 and was called the Sierra Designs Omega, which was their "convertible" tent in which the inner wall could be zipped completely up for the cold, or opened onto mesh for the warm. The tent has never given me a single problem in 20 years and I still pull it out for bad winter weather, but it weighs in at a little over six pounds! Still, if you've ever been tent-bound for a few days, there's nothing like comfortably waiting on the weather surrounded by hot chocolate (splashed with whiskey), warm booties, and lots of words.




So yes, I have made brief forays into the art of tarping, and even picked up a bivy sack to stave off the worst of the weather whilst cowering under the sagging tarp, but I don't think I took it seriously enough to get proficient. Or efficient. Or sufficient. My tarping turned into the evening's activity, like of a sudden I'm journeying into the woods to spend the evening hours setting up the dang tarp, getting comfortable with tarp alchemy, getting my sleeping area mostly out of the rain, getting the proper angle against the wind, etc., meanwhile everything gets rained on, or my books fall into the snow. And then there is the fact that I simply don't enjoy spending lots of time setting up or breaking down camp. I'd rather walk or read or watch the water roll by. I may just be lazy. But hey, we all have our reasons for getting away from already practically being away from it all.

(When you wish you'd brought that tent...)
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So but anyway, earlier this fall, after finally arriving at that happy place with the outfitting of the bulkhead in the new boat (yes, I had to find and then buy another boat recently as mine was stolen this summer by a gang of thieves), I spent a glorious weekend in West VA in an absolute downpour. Two days and two nights of near constant rain. And I'm not gonna lie: I'm just not a tarp guy. I fumbled with the stakes and paddles and knotted up cord I had carefully attached to each grommet, rain puddled and collapsed the paddles and when I finally crawled into my wet sleeping bag I was like: Yea, right.

I mean, don't hear me wrong. I've used the bivy on many occasions for quick overnighters, for going fast and light, and it works. But for extended trips? I think I'm ready to say officially NOT. (And I'm nearly certain that reading about Alan's forty days and forty nights of rain several months ago helped solidify my position on this.)



Something sort of registered. I've got a desert canyon trip coming up in about a month (actually 43 days 16 hours, but who's counting?) and hammock sleeping won't be feasible as the trees will be a tad sparse (and the nights will be a bit chilly), so I've been once again experimenting with the tarp/bivy. I figured the tarp would help keep the weight down as I'll be paddling through US Park Service land and therefore have to carry all their required supplies: groover, fire pan, helicopter signal panels, hand-washing system (?), extra PFD, etc... which actually turns into quite the pile of gear. So it's shaping up to be an eighteen day trip, and my boat is thirteen feet long and I've got 48" air bags on either end. Neither do I like a canoe that is loaded and sluggish, so limiting my available space for gear is a great way for me to cull only the necessary crap from the various piles of prospective wants and needs. But so I didn't buy an ultra-light sil-nylon tarp or anything, but simply stuffed my Eno rainfly into a compression sack with a bunch of those lightweight aluminum (0.46 oz.) tent stakes and threw in the OR bivy for when the rain really comes down. Then my nineteen year old son came in with his North Face Triarch 1 tent, including rainfly, footprint, and stakes, and beat the weight of my tarp/bivy by a few ounces. 2.7 lbs for a tent! "Why don't you just use this?" he said. And just like that, I gave up on the idea of a tarp.

I then asked him about the real possibility of borrowing his tent for a western trip and he said, "You got to do what you got to do." Which in my mind translates into: Absolutely, pops! Take it wherever you'd like for as long as you'd like!

And while the weather for my test run with the borrowed tent to my hometown river was indeed beautiful, and therefore probably inadequate on many levels for a true test of the tent's integrity, nonetheless the wide side entry door made access easy, the higher ceiling in the middle made sitting in the tent (even in my low chair!) comfortable, and the pole configuration made setting up a breeze. I suspect if I plan on being tent-bound in the snow for any length of time I would still probably prefer the Omega, but for a lightweight solo tent, there was room enough to be comfortable, and my struggles with solving the Rubik's Cube with my hands tied behind my back in the rain were pleasantly alleviated.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Now, have you ever canoe camped in the desert?
You have a packing dilemma and might it be possible to jettison the air bags? Packs hold lots of air.. just insert contractors garbage bags..
You want the groover as far in back of you as possible.. Yee cage outfitting is desirable to keep it in check. One trip down the Green we traveled a ways with a husband and wife each in their own kayaks. The poor woman by day 8 was becoming over come by groover fumes. It was on her back deck right in back of the cockpit.
The blasted firepan is a PITA. I dont think a fire blanket suffices. The extra PFD really roils me as there is no requirement you wear any PFD. If you had to wear it , it would be unlikely you would ever need an extra.

Tarp is so so useless. Beach Umbrealla that screws into sand highly useful.. Get one of those eight foot diameter ones

Grit.. May I introduce you to grit? Lightweight mesh tents have a little problem.. The let in enough silt that in the morning you need an O2 tank to breathe.. Much better for us we have found is our four season ultra tight mountaineering tent at 11 lbs. Heck we have burros for hauling ( I wish but its not that big a deal). It has lots of tieouts.. and you need beefy sand stakes which are known for their lightness ( not)

Also a piece of plastic. If you are on a desert river, its guaranteed you will have a couple days of monsoons. You dont want to cuddle on a damp floor. This time I will recommend innie, Sand drains a little better than the Shield.
Dont forget it snows. We had a Mothers Day snowstorm on the Green the day after we baked in 103 degrees.

Its very windy on canyon trips.. Unless you like chasing skirts forget the tarp.

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

Ladore Canyon is the closet I've come to a desert river. It was pretty desert-y, in terms of the introduction to sand, but I am looking forward to getting a full and proper introduction. I suppose if the desert river has water in it you're doing pretty good. Our trip through Ladore they required us to carry a fire pan although fires were banned. That was pretty frustrating, but we had a gear raft so the thirty pound fire pan meant little. It was also a summer trip and we baked. No gear support on this one. Just me and the canyon. So this time I folded a pan up out of thin-gauged stainless and it weighs less than 5 lbs. It also comes apart for storage into 11 pieces held together with wing nuts. I'm required to have BOTH the fire pan AND the fire blanket.

And yes, I've considered smaller air bags, though I'm also trying to work within my allotment of space. I mean, Mr. Nestler from Richmond did 28 days out of a kayak. I'm trying to keep my weight below 350, including myself. Dressed up for winter in my clown suit and PFD I'm coming in around 210, which leaves me roughly 120 lbs or so. I could go to 30" bags and bring the kitchen sink, but then I feel the boat will start to get really boggy and I'm really working on taking less and less. Although I may be wrong. I've packed a lot of stuff in her and she feels just as nimble as can be. I may be pleasantly surprised and I may can reduce the size of my float bags. Although on the other hand I've got two of the big NRS "Bill's Bags" fitting on either side of my bulkhead and I feel if I can't fit everything I need and then some in those bags I need to slim down. They are HUGE! And yes, all my dry bags are kept inflated and tight to the hull, so they do a fine job keeping out water.

I strap the groover (26 linear inches of 6" 35 SCH. PVC) directly to the hull under my stern float bag. I'm using WAG bags in the tube, though a friend of mine came up with a pretty simple design that would enable me to deposit my goods directly into the tube without removing it from the boat. (Don't miss!) Useless park service requirements I'm packing into a watershed and sliding up under bow bag for permanent storage (unless I need a helicopter rescue, I guess). So in that sense the float bags do not represent a complete lack of storage space. (Park service REQUIRES float bags in GC.)

There's a good chance that I frankly won't even use the tent, unless it comes a good rain. In Ladore I took a therm-a-rest and a sleeping bag, but I was about six years younger. And no, I have no idea what I'm doing other than trying to avoid the hole at Crystal and trying to keep sand out of my ... peanut butter tortillas.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Oh. Grand Canyon.. Not done that at all save on foot! You are way ahead of me in daring and skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh6rlMFjMn4

never mind the tent!

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

Yes, my son and I hiked around in it last year and I've been thinking about that river ever since. And don't let the trip fool you. I actually do not have much daring left and my skillz are pretty abysmal. But there's only about 26 miles of whitewater. And but a self-support solo canoe trip through the Grand Canyon? That's worth a little stomach flutter.

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43 days 11 hours...

 

[Alan Gage]

Hammocks are good but, as with the desert, they don't always work up north either. I thought my CCS lean, being a 3 sided shelter with bug protection would be the perfect combination of lightweight, good protection and nostalgic. It did pretty good and I'll still give it quite a bit of use but not on another long trip like the one I just got done with. The single biggest downfall I found with it was the wind switching directions in the middle of the night and blowing in through the door. That can be tough to guard against and isn't easy to deal with in the rain, a 35mph wind, dark, and underwear. That only happened once but it was an experience I won't soon be forgetting and not one I care to repeat.

I like the idea of a lightweight bivy and tarp but, again, not for long trips. Days on end of rain, wind, and cold doesn't sound particularly pleasant. I also want somewhere I can escape from the bugs that's bigger than a coffin.

So, like you, I'm looking at tents. I haven't slept in an honest to goodness tent in probably 7 years. Like you said the weights nowadays are impressive.

My criteria are:
Two person so there's room for the dog and assorted personal gear. If I'm going to be stuck in the tent for 3 days I want a little elbow room.
Relatively lightweight.
Able to stand up to a heck of a wind.
Double wall to cut down on condensation issues
Fast setup and take down (I don't like tinkering with tarp/shelter setups either.)
Two doors would be nice for air flow in hot weather

So far the Big Sky Revolution is leading the pack: http://bigskyproducts.com/big-sky-revolution-2p-tent.aspx
Not cheap but by all accounts it's a great tent. The poles attach to the fly rather than the inner tent. You can separate the fly from the inner tent or leave them together. The upside to this is that when setting up in the rain the waterproof fly is protecting the inner shelter so keeps it dry. You can get either a mesh inner or nylon for use in colder weather or where blowing sand might be an issue.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

And but a self-support solo canoe trip through the Grand Canyon? That's worth a little stomach flutter.

Definitely! Can't wait to hear about it.

Alan

 

[clemency]

Way too many words. I've got an MSR Hubba Hubba for backpacking. And then there's these, made by a college friend of mine.

https://www.tarptent.com/index.html

Edit: Much easier to read on an actual computer. Guess I was waiting for a question. I stand by my answer though, because when it comes to a non-question a half-baked answer is ok.

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

Indeed!

Henry James once suggested: “How do I know what I think until I’ve written it down?”

I should probably also here admit that I have great admiration for an odd little man named Richard Hugo, who once upon a time lived in the Pacific Northwest, worked for Boeing Company, and put English words together in odd ways. He once suggested that questions asked ought not be answered, and questions answered ought not be asked.

I have no idea why, and I won’t here posit a bunch of possibilities (of which I have a healthy few). Rest assured, however, that Hugo’s odd piece of literary wisdom may help explain why I was an absolutely atrocious teacher.

Take comfort in the fact that you are 100% correct. In fact, if you were any closer to the truth you would probably burst into flame or become invisible.

And thanks. Those look like great tents.

 

[Guest]

We have a couple of (relatively) lightweight tents, and MSR Hubba Hubba and a Big Agnes clone. They have stood up surprisingly well to high winds in unsheltered areas, but if there is blowing sand or dust the open mesh without a zip-up nylon window cover for the screening is beyond a PITA. That is some fine dust and sand and it will blow through even noseeum mesh in shovel-able quantities.

With the mostly mesh Hubba Hubba I was forced on one windy trip to resort to this:



That omnipresent blowing sand and dust make sleeping under a tarp less attractive, unless you can nod off wearing a respirator and goggles. Maybe plugs for your ears too.

The biggest drawback to a lightweight tent is the desert is the zippers. One easy way to lose weight on a tent design is to incorporate a lighter (thinner & less robust) zipper. Fine blowing sand and desert dust plays heck with frail zippers.

With any tent zipper in desert use it pays to use a small damp sponge or cloth to wipe down the (unzipped) zippers occasionally, if not every day. It can make the difference between a nice smooth zzzzziiiipppp and the GGGZZZCHCHCH grind which often precedes a zipper failure.

It sounds like you have a solution to the onerous fire pan regulation. We have used a folded flat aluminum foil turkey roasting pan, which met the size requirements for the Green River, but I would not recommend it if you actually plan to have fires. We used it once just to see, and it quickly developed holes and slits when refolded flat.

What worked on a latter trip was a huge stainless steel watering bowl (Tractor Supply). It met the size requirements, wasn’t terrible heavy and required no assemble or sooty fingered disassembly. Best of all it fit over the bottom of the 30L barrel nicely (stick the sooty pan in a plastic bag first). This one (I think):

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/spot-mirror-finish-stainless-steel-bowl-10-qt?cm_vc=-10005

Tarp is so so useless. Beach Umbrealla that screws into sand highly useful.. Get one of those eight foot diameter ones


Its very windy on canyon trips.. Unless you like chasing skirts forget the tarp.

I disagree about the usefulness of a tarp on desert rivers. OR, more specifically, I recommend a true parawing with catenary shape. Stable (and unflapping) in high winds with just two poles. The shade is appreciated on hot sunny days, not just for personal protection but also to shade the food barrel and etc. On hot sunny days in the desert you quickly learn not to pick up things that have roasting in the sun without wearing gloves.

The wind in this photo is absolutely howling, 30++, gusting 50. There are three guylines on each corner with mil-spec stakes and 50 lbs of rocks atop each stake. Because of the catenary cuts the harder it blew the more stable the wing became. I have had a Tundra Tarp up in similar winds and watched the stitched seams stretch open under stress; because the catenary cuts spills wind so effectively the seams on that oft-used 20 year old wing withstood several days of extreme wind without a hint of failure.



The biggest desert advantage to a parawing beyond performance in the wind is for water collection when it rains. I have collected gallons of water off the wing in minutes during a brief desert downpour, ready to be filtered without resorting to alum flocculation slit settling. Note the water collect bucket at the perfect pour low end.



The biggest disadvantages to a parabolic wing is the reduced coverage under the low ends and that, unlike a flat tarp, it can only be set up in one guise. That blue wing is 16 x16 (or maybe 19 x 19) and it is just big enough for two people and gear. But because of the narrow tapered corners it packs down to the size of a melon.

I've never been much of a tarp guy.
I don't think I took it seriously enough to get proficient. Or efficient. Or sufficient. My tarping turned into the evening's activity, like of a sudden I'm journeying into the woods to spend the evening hours setting up the dang tarp, getting comfortable with tarp alchemy, getting my sleeping area mostly out of the rain, getting the proper angle against the wind, etc., meanwhile everything gets rained on, or my books fall into the snow. And then there is the fact that I simply don't enjoy spending lots of time setting up or breaking down camp.

OK, maybe the biggest advantage of a wing is that they are dead easy to set up. Pole and stake out one end, stretch out the wing, pole and stake the other, stake out the low corners sans poles. There is only one way to properly set up a wing and once it’s quickly done it is bombproof.

One more kinda oddball gear piece. On sandy desert or coastal trip I carry a piece of fake grass carpeting (Home Depot/Lowes/ect) to lay in/outside the entrance vestibule. The soft grass bristles do an excellent job removing sand from my hands and knees when crawling in, and anything I move from the vestibule into the tent is not carrying a bottom load of sand with it.

The fake grass material is lightweight, rolls up small and is very open weave so it does not collect water.



BTW, that is sleet on the fake grass. Think ice water collected off the parawing. At least the beer was cold again.

Small tent with sealable windows for dust free sleeping. Small parawing with two (or three) guylines attached to the corners and two poles for shade, rain and water collection. Maybe a piece of fake grass.

 

[Will Derness]

The biggest drawback to a lightweight tent is the desert is the zippers. ............. Fine blowing sand and desert dust plays heck with frail zippers.

With any tent zipper in desert use it pays to use a small damp sponge or cloth to wipe down the (unzipped) zippers occasionally, if not every day.

My last trip down the Green River, our group encountered very high winds the first night out. Very fine sand, almost a fine flour consistency, found its way into everything. I quickly collected 3 little dust pans of sand from inside my tent the next morning. Everyone's doorway zippers were clogged and balky to operate.

One person in our party had brought a cycling water bottle with them. This proved to be a perfect instrument to inject small quantities of water onto the zipper, precisely where it needed to go. Clean water is not to be wasted in this climate. We found with one person operating the zipper and the other dribbling water out of the bike water bottle onto the zipper, we were able to pretty quickly clean the zippers. I added a cycling water bottle to my pack list after that experience.

 

[Guest]

My criteria are:
Two person so there's room for the dog and assorted personal gear. If I'm going to be stuck in the tent for 3 days I want a little elbow room.
Relatively lightweight.
Able to stand up to a heck of a wind.
Double wall to cut down on condensation issues
Fast setup and take down (I don't like tinkering with tarp/shelter setups either.)
Two doors would be nice for air flow in hot weather

Those are much the same as my criteria. Some thoughts.

Presuming you mean stuck in the tent for three nights; I’ll take both tarp and a tent over being stuck for long periods in a tent. I kinda enjoy hanging under a well hung tarp in inclement weather, shaking my fist at the sky and bellowing “IS THIS THE WORST YOU’VE GOT!”

Two person. That is a loosely defined term under tent maker nomenclature. The “two person” Hubba Hubba is just big enough my wide sleeping pad, leaving a few inches of room on either side for night gear. No way could I share it with a dog, much less another person. It is a 1 ½ person tent at best (and I’ve slept 3 adults in a 2-man Timberline).

Relative lightweight. Yeah, but I’d accept a couple extra ounces for robust door zippers and a thicker more waterproof/durable floor. It is all a weight trade and those are two areas I’d rather not compromise. There is some industry/manufacturer millimeter waterproof rating for tent (floor) materials and a lot of the lightweight tents fall at the low end of that scale.

Able to stand up to a helluva wind. Despite the seeming frailty of the poles I have been impressed with the windproofieness of even the Hubba Hubba and Big Agnes clone. I think the wind resistance has much to do with the actual shape of the tent. Vertical wall tents bad, A-frames not so good. That wind shedding design is beyond my ken, but having seen the difference between a catenary cut parawing and a flat tarp in the wind I know the shape of the tent comes into play.

More on windproof tents in a bit.

Double wall to cut down on condensation issues. Absolutely. Mesh sided tents help with that issue and are surprisingly not that much chillier in cold temps (like 5 to 7 degrees difference when tested IIRC, nothing my sleeping bag can’t handle). The difference in heat retention between a layer of sil-nylon and a layer of noseeum netting ain’t much.

Fast set up. For me that means clips, not pole sleeves. Clips with ladder lock webbing tensioners on the tent body and fly ends. With a logical order of set up procedure and symmetrical body and fly, so I can’t hurriedly start clipping things together in the incorrect orientation.

Two doors. And two vestibules; one for entry/exit and one for gear storage. The shape and orientation of vestibules have their own wind shedding impact, equally design unfathomable by my pea brain.

About the windproofieness. Some years ago friends, having heard their fill of my bemoaning desires for a really windproof tent, bought me one. Two doors, two vestibules, no sleeve/all clips (and weird tensioner bungees at every clip), designed to withstand near hurricane force winds.

It was the most mind numbingly complex tent to set up I have ever seen. We (two people) set it up once, indoors with instructions in hand, and it was a nightmare. It had, I kid you not, 57 separate steps that had to be performed in a specific order. Some of those steps involved fastening connections between the fly and tent body, which was best accomplished by lying on the ground and peering up between the two pieces.

It wasn’t even that dang easy to take down, which I had not considered as a potential issue.

When I thought about trying to set that nightmare up, rushing to beat the rain or in the pending dark, I knew it was never going to happen and it went back the manufacturer.

I am a fan of the (stupidly pricey) under tent “footprints” that come with many tents. Simply having scalloped edges, so the groundcloth doesn’t peek out beyond the tent/fly collecting rain underneath is invaulable, and having designed (double) grommeted pole corners/stake out corners on the groundcloth/footprint makes set up faster and easier. If nothing else in windy conditions being able to stake the ground cloth down first in the exact orientation desired, without it flying away, before dealing with the tent body, poles and fly, is a worthwhile boon.

One last feature I have not seen on a small tent. See those batten-down-the-hatches Pale Ale boxes and gear windage piled against the Hubba Hubba fly? I would really like a tent with a deployable sod cloth around the rainfly perimeter, just a couple inches of cloth that could be left rolled up/fastened for ventilation and let down to occlude blowing sand and dust or to keep the interior warmer in cold temps.

That might have to be a DIY sewing adaptation.

 

[Uncle_Skwid]

On withstanding a heck-a-wind in a mind-numblingly complex tent:

Of primary import when setting an expedition tent up for gale-force winds is the external and internal guy system. The trick is to guy the fly outwards as often and as taut as possible (probably 3 points of attachment per side for a 2-man tent, 2 on either end), and then attached (hopefully with simple clips) the fly at those points to the tent body, such that on the inside the tent body can be guy-ed inwards, at the same key points of attachment, to opposite sides of itself without compromising (too much) your ability to move around (at least enough to melt snow). Your space will be somewhat compromised, but you won't care. In gale force winds you’ll have a web of guy lines crisscrossing above your head, your fly will be clipped to the tent body in all sorts of pain-in-the-arse places and then pulled outwards as taut as possible (tent pulled inward, fly outward), all your pole crossings will be reinforced with multiple bungie wrap/tensioners to try and keep your poles from snapping, and your fly dang well better extend almost all the way to the ground, though you probably dug your spot out of the snow anyway and you're half buried. (PITA? Absolutely.) Then I’d probably suggest curling up in the fetal position and praying the rosary. If you’ve taken these precautions you’re probably somewhere where catastrophic tent failure means game over.

 

[yellowcanoe]

Withstanding a windstorm... just don't leave the tent to pee. On the Green people left their tent to hike. From the summit view the five of them all using solo tents counted four tents

One had left on a solo tent trip down Cataract Canyon. With the sleeping bag, mattress and clothes inside.

A water jug is very handy for dead anchor mass. Filled that is.

I fell for another Hubba Hubba even though winds damaged the poles of the first. You have to be careful too not to let them spring open.. Three segments have spiral cracks.

 

[Guest]

On withstanding a heck-a-wind in a mind-numblingly complex tent:

Of primary import when setting an expedition tent up for gale-force winds is the external and internal guy system. In gale force winds you’ll have a web of guy lines crisscrossing above your head

Then I’d probably suggest curling up in the fetal position and praying the rosary.

I did not even mention the internal guy lines that could be added to that tent, X’s of line across the ceiling and across the doors. I looked at that pattern of internal lines and gave it an equal chance that I’d strangle myself if I sat upright or crap the bed if nature called in the middle of the night.

Curling up in a fetal position and praying sounds about right.

The instructions said nothing about bringing the groover into the tent before tying yourself securely inside.

 

[Guest]

More about parawings in the wind.

If you look at the first photo above the wind is blowing directly against the low facing side of the wing and you can see the “bat wing” parabolic effect taking shape. The wing (hence the name) is actually lofted on the high sides instead of being pushed down by the wind. That effect of that wind lofted shape is easier on the seams/stitching and presents less force on the lines and stakes. Plus the tarp is not being forced down with lower head room and becomes more rigid, not flapping in the wind.

Contrast that to the shape of the wing in second photo where there is no wind on the wing.

Parawings with a true catenary cut shine in high winds.

NOTE: Some “parawing” tarps do not have a true catenary cut, without which that bat wing loft and unflappability is lost.

 

[Guest]

Withstanding a windstorm... just don't leave the tent to pee. On the Green people left their tent to hike. From the summit view the five of them all using solo tents counted four tents

One had left on a solo tent trip down Cataract Canyon. With the sleeping bag, mattress and clothes inside.

I am reminded of friends who brought one of those ridiculous folding accordion framed backyard picnic shelters to Assateague. After a windy night they awoke to find it missing. It was eventually spotted a half mile away upside down in the marsh.

I fell for another Hubba Hubba even though winds damaged the poles of the first. You have to be careful too not to let them spring open.. Three segments have spiral cracks.

Overall I am pleased with the Hubba Hubba in terms of bang for buck and design thoughtfulness, at least for areas not prone to blowing dust and sand. Enough that I too bought a second when REI had them under $200 with a gear shed. I am still chagrined that yours was an even less expensive REI Outlet deal. It is hard to turn down a new Hubba Hubba for $160 and change.

That >----< mass of shock corded and spider connected poles are a handful to get ferruled together without allowing them to CLACK-SNAP freely into place. The poles on ours have withstood some winds I thought would flatten or tear apart the tent without damage and I think the hard to prevent CLACK-SNAP is the real culprit on pole end damage and spiral cracks.

Mostly the resounding end-on-end SNAP part that sounds like a .22 going off. That can’t be good.

 

[Alan Gage]

[Mikey said:"Relative lightweight. Yeah, but I&#146;d accept a couple extra ounces for robust door zippers and a thicker more waterproof/durable floor. It is all a weight trade and those are two areas I&#146;d rather not compromise. There is some industry/manufacturer millimeter waterproof rating for tent (floor) materials and a lot of the lightweight tents fall at the low end of that scale."[/quote]

I agree about thicker floors. Biggest concern I have with the Big Sky tent I linked to above is the use of a 1.1oz. sil/nylon floor. I expect that to be waterproof but not very resilient to pokes and pinholes. One could always use a heavier weight footprint for protection, and that's probably a good practice anyway, but, like you said, I'd happily give up a few ounces for a more robust floor. Maybe if I get serious about that tent I can check to see if custom builds are an option.

Alan

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

Just buy a Hilleberg and be done with it.

We are now a two Hille family as the dog takes up too much room in the Staika to be comfortable in hot weather. We bought a Nallo 3 and are learning to live with just one entrance again. The vestibule is big and the door wide so it is still easy to get in and out. Sand does stick to silnylon though so that would be one downside

 

[Canotrouge]

Just buy a Hilleberg and be done with it.

We are now a two Hille family as the dog takes up too much room in the Staika to be comfortable in hot weather. We bought a Nallo 3 and are learning to live with just one entrance again. The vestibule is big and the door wide so it is still easy to get in and out. Sand does stick to silnylon though so that would be one downside

The best tent made period. We have one for many years now, and it is a great tent, really well made and bomb proof. That said, the one we have is the Nalo 4 GT, and it is really hot in the summer. And the way the back end is makes for a pretty tight living space. If I would buy an other one I would certainly go with the Kaitum 3, only 10 inches narrower than the Nalo 4, but have the advantage of 2 doors and 2 vestibules so better ventilation and easier access in and out. A bit lower but the hight is at a better place being in the center of the tent.

Really great tents!!