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Issues while paddling downwind

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We all like to have a tail wind but sometimes on large open water it feels like my stern wants to pass out the bow. This happens when my boat is slightly bow light so I would think it would weather vane with the bow down wind. What I think is happening is that the wind is pushing the water creating a current that is faster than my boat speed, grabbing the stern,overpowering any weather vaneing affect caused by the wind. Anyone else experience this and how do you handle it?
 
We were faced with fierce tailwinds on the upper Allagash this year but I had few options to adjust the weight other then adding rocks.
 
Water particles are stationary when there are waves save for the molecules at the very surface
Bow heavy will mean your bow will slue into the wind
Stern heavy is the key. As far back as those packs will go
Some boats have less of an issue than others
 
I'll try that. It's been happening in a Tripper which would be more effected by the wind than my other tripping boat. I can only go so stern heavy though or it's gonna be me with a wet arse.:D Is it possible that sometimes you just have to deal with it, I'm sure I've tried changing the trim before. It feels like I need a rudder.
 
I just picked up a WaterBrick to use as water storage and movable ballast. It's 3.5 gallons and ~28 lbs full. It looks like it will work a lot better than the 5 gallon flexible jugs I was using before. I want to a layer of foam to the side of the jug so it has padding and stiction on the canoe hull and also a little positive floatation. I need to figure out weather contact cement will leach through the plastic. and poison the water.
 
Circa early 70's. We were caught in a very serious situation crossing a very large calm lake when suddenly a wind storm came in. The waves got so large that we could not see the shore line when we were down between waves. We had no choice but to go in the direction of the wind even though it was not where we were headed. The heavily loaded OT Tripper's load was adjusted to the rear but that did not help and we were getting physically tired trying to keep the boat straight downwind using every appropriate correcting stroke. I had never been so scared in a boat in my life. I was in the stern seat and had some hard rice soaking in a large cooking pot between my knees. Managed to tie the rear lining rope around it's handle and get it overboard. The sea anchor worked and kept the canoe straight with very little effort from us. We were able to get to a small beach and wait the storm out. The pictures below shows the water we were on and then after the storm subsided, where the waves had deposited the canoe on a small beach. BeachedAugust1975.jpg
 

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I have a small sea anchor that I carried when poking around the gulf coast in an inflatable canoe. It seemed like a long way to the yucatan if a storm caught me. I kind of lost interest because of curious sharks. I've got about a 12 mile fetch to Baltimore off my beach so I've thought about how I would rig it on a canoe. You need to have a way to deploy and retrieve the anchor from the bow or stern without leaving your seat. That means starting with bow and stern lines led amidships and attaching a tag line with a bowline knot added to retrieve the sea anchor. this way it is possible to switch from stearn deployment for down wind running or carefully switch to bow deployment for upwind survival paddling. Yarrr... There's a bunch of physics and voodoo involved in in setting a sea anchor but from recollection, you need to have the anchor on a longer line with a certain amount of give like nylon.
 
I have a small sea anchor I made from ripstop nylon. Only used it to try it out and slow the drift to eat some lunch. It would live in a small bag up under the foredeck anytime I went out on the bay. I think I packed it already, if not I'll take a pic. It's probably in the storage unit up in Maine.
Jim
 
Iowangle, since you say it's on large open water, the waves might be long-period waves due to long distance fetch (distance from wave crest to wave crest is large and long period waves take a longer amount to pass than short period ones) and if the distance between wave crests is greater than roughly half the hull length, the bow will rise up higher than the rest of the canoe when it's up at the wave crest and could tend to slide off to the side due to gravity.

Sort of like trying to keep a canoe pointing up an ice-covered slippery hill, if the bow isn't pointed perfectly straight uphill, it will tend to slide off sideways downhill... this has happened on the Great Lakes where the waves can get to be long period but not very dangerous if the canoe rises and falls over the long wave crests smoothly. Climbing a wave crest, the bow seems to want to slide off to the side at times bringing the canoe broadside to the waves (IIRC this is broaching but I'm not sure with nautical terms).

The same effect could happen if the stern is higher on a wave crest causing the stern to want to slide off sideways. Maybe surfing... surfing with following waves, the canoe definitely wants to turn off to the side on it's own.
 
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Never had bow slide off waves even on six foot tall long period waves. On the ocean these lazy rollers are actually fun. Broaching is generally the bane of winds from the stern and can happen fast. Sometimes we have the stern person just keep the paddle in the water to steer. No power strokes
 
Well, I just had to google it... riding the rollers can be fun, work, what's that... could be wave energy causing the turning force.

Another cause of broaching is encountered in heavy seas and high winds. If the bow of the yacht is not kept pointed into the waves, then the waves will push the bow aside, turning the boat side-on to the waves. Once side-on to the waves, the waves will roll the yacht side to side violently, causing severe discomfort to the crew, and the yacht may broach and may even capsize.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)#Causes.2C_prevention_and_cure
 
We all like to have a tail wind but sometimes on large open water it feels like my stern wants to pass out the bow. This happens when my boat is slightly bow light so I would think it would weather vane with the bow down wind. What I think is happening is that the wind is pushing the water creating a current that is faster than my boat speed, grabbing the stern,overpowering any weather vaneing affect caused by the wind. Anyone else experience this and how do you handle it?

Other tailwind issues.

For me waves are often the biggest issue. Not big lazy interval “ocean” waves, but the short, steep, high-frequency chop in shallower waters with a long fetch.

Often/usually those waves are moving much faster than my canoe. With a heavily loaded tripping canoe the hull isn’t rising atop the passing waves as much as the wave is rising high on the hull. Even planting the paddle stroke on the waves to lift the hull only helps so much. A full spray skirt would help when the wave tops get uncomfortably close to the gunwales, but mine are partials bow and stern, leaving the lowest depth center of the canoe open.

When it gets to the point that I’m desperately trying to raise the hull on the face of each passing wave it is past time to get off the water. The easiest way to manage wind-created waves from the stern is to put up a sail; once the canoe gets up to sailing speed the whole ride settles out. The waves are still passing me, but much more slowly and sometimes I can ride even a choppy crest for quite a while.

For me the worst part of tailwind waves is when my route or a turn takes me off angle to the following waves, and the waves want to slew the stern further around than manageable without ending up sideways. That is when a rudder helps, provided the dang thing is actually in the water and not dangling in the air above a trough.

Adjusting gear for trim weight astern is easier in a dedicated solo (or soloized tandem). In a tandem, even going solo bow backwards, there isn’t a lot of room behind the seat to transfer gear weight. I could stand a 115L pack there on end, but then I have enlarged the “sail” sticking up in the stern.

Packed gear height makes a difference in wind and sail-catch area. I don’t want gear stacked above the gunwales behind me in a tailwind and vice versa don’t want to need a periscope to see above the bow load going into a headwind. My body sticking up above the gunwales is enough sail area for the wind to catch, I don’t need a tower of gear making things worse.

How do I handle it?
Paddle solo boats, so my seat position and body sail-area is more centered in the boat and I have more room behind the seat for below-gunwales gear weight transfer.
Use spray covers; even the bow & stern partials help with wind resistance.
Use a small sail when the wind speed and direction are appropriate; it is amazing how much smoother choppy waves get when running downwind under a sail.
Use a rudder, especially with a broad reach route, with the wind coming over one shoulder.
The easiest solution is to use a decked, ruddered boat. The Monarch in the wind is far less of a handful than an open boat. When I first started using the Monarch I was amazed at my sudden paddling prowess in wind and wave. I was no better than before, but the decked hull and rudder (and sail) allowed me to comfortably paddle stuff that would have made me pee my pants in an open canoe.
 
Yeah. I had a blast in the Monarch on tailwinds on Lake Superior while my rudderless freiend in Greenland kayak struggled. The seas were over our heads so maybe 3-4 feet
 
Thanks for all the input. I think I have it figured out, it is the wind pushing the stern over. Stern heavy is the way to go, no more experimenting here. A rudder or sea anchor would help as would a spray cover. Mostly though I have to get over the guilt of hanging onto my paddle doing corrections while my wife supplies the power. It gets frustrating when you think you have it all figured out and then your canoe starts doing something that you don't expect and can't find an efficient solution for.
 
I have unquestionably had the Monarch out in wind and wave that would have kept me ashore in an open boat. It is a better and more forgiving boat than I am a paddler.

Even that decked, ruddered tripping hull is not the be all and end all; I have exceeded my comfort level a few times in the Monarch, pegging my “crap. . . . Oh crap!” meter before I recognized my new found limitations.

In every case that was when I got further off shore than I’d like to be and had to make a 90-ish degree turn putting me on a new broad reach heading back towards the comfort of land. Desperation sweeps trying to prevent the bow from swapping ends on the verge of a broach will make me say bad words.
 
A rudder or sea anchor would help as would a spray cover. Mostly though I have to get over the guilt of hanging onto my paddle doing corrections while my wife supplies the power. It gets frustrating when you think you have it all figured out and then your canoe starts doing something that you don't expect and can't find an efficient solution for.

I have never used a sea anchor. Rudders are a big help, but kinda awkward on an open canoe. Spray covers help, but are pricey and make loading & unloading a bit more awkward.

Running with the wind, or even on a bit of a broad reach there is a $10 or $15 dollar item that can make a big difference in a tandem.

https://www.google.com/search?q=poi...i=XwFlWfbjJIOE-wHz-KvoAQ#imgrc=0me9cKDEjSpD-M:

One of these:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/JP-Lann-Double-Canopy-Golf-Umbrella/53997691

Have your bowman hold it horizontally out front. In high or gusty winds they might have to hold both the handle and the slider/runner mechanism to keep it from inverting, but a 60+ inch golf umbrella will move a canoe along smartly in the wind, and can be angled a bit to spill wind to one side and hold a course a bit off line.

The at speed “ride” in wind and wave, with even using an umbrella sail, is much smoother and you can hang that rudder in the stern while your wife supplies the power via umbrella sail. Without guilt; you’ll be working harder than she is.

Those were our downwind go-to in tandem boats, especially with kid bowmen. One of the best “sailing” trips I ever had was in a long lean tandem with an experienced small boat sailor holding a golf umbrella in the bow. He knew his sailing stuff, picked our route and all I did was hang a bit of paddle rudder.

Handy in camp for rainy thunderbox visits too. Even though I have a sail rig in most of our boats I still carry a golf umbrella. heck, brief shower on a day trip? Pull into an eddy and grab the umbrella. It’s worth 2lbs and furls/packs easily.
 
how do you handle it?

Accept that the wind wants to push your stern downwind and do a MacKenzie reversal.

If you can, turn around in your seat and paddle facing the stern. If you don't have the kind of seats that allow turning around, or have a thwart behind the bow seat, get off the seat onto your knees and then turn around and face astern. You can even sit on the bottom of the hull facing astern if you have legroom under the seat.
 
For me, the most noticeable effect of the canoe wanting to turn when paddling in the same direction of wind and waves is when the canoe starts to surf down a wave crest into the trough and it often wants to turn to the side. This happens often, and the best way IMO is to keep the canoe headed in the same direction as the waves are going as much as possible and just power through as fast as possible.

The water currents inside a large wave don't move all the water forward, rather it's a circular current inside the wave with internal current at the crest moving forward with the wave direction and the current in the trough moving backward. As illustrated here:


LREOB-Fig-3797.jpg


So if the canoe is surfing down the crest of the wave like the sailboat above, the stern will be buried in the crest and the forward-moving internal current there will act to turn the stern to the right or left if it is not perfectly aligned with the wave direction. The bow will be buried in the trough where the current is reversed and that will act to turn the bow the same way, but 180 degrees opposite. The two combined and opposite wave currents at crest and trough acting together will work to turn the canoe and the canoe will want to broach if it isn't perfectly aligned with wave direction.

Paddling into the waves it's the same story, except that forward speed is greater relative to the wave movement and the time that the wave's internal currents have to work on the hull are less. The time to pass through the crest and trough of the wave is shorter, with less opportunity for the wave's internal currents to turn the canoe.

Gravity probably adds some turning force as well since in the above illustration, the sailboat seems unstable since the stern is riding higher at the crest with the bow buried in the trough. Gravity would probably act to make bow and stern want to ride level and that means the sailboat would want to turn to the side when it's in the trough.

The remedy for the effects of internal wave currents, although maybe not the most workable in rough water... increasing speed through the waves should make the internal currents working to turn the canoe act for a shorter amount of time, and keeping the canoe aligned as closely as possible with wave direction so that the currents aren't acting more strongly on one side of the hull, causing it to turn.

I guess the best test to determine whether it's waves or wind turning the canoe would be to paddle when the wind dies down, with waves still up. Fuzzy memory, but I bet with no wind the canoe will still want to to turn to the side when surfing down a wave crest into a trough.
 
It does. Lots of times we have waves on the ocean and no wind. Surf landings always turn into broaches then too.
Waves can be generated in our area from stuff in Africa
 
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