In Search of a Gunnel Repair Solution

[Will Derness]

A recently acquired used Swift canoe has been neglected by its previous owner. Clearly left outside without cover and on the ground. The serial # indicates it is 22 years old.

All the wood members seats, yoke, handles need to be replaced. Having replaced these in the past I'm comfortable with that work and have already started on that effort.











Gunnel Issues

However, when I saw the gunnels I had some indecision on whether or not to purchase the canoe. But the price was very low and the hull itself in fine shape, so I opted to buy it and trust that I would find a way to rehab the gunnels.

The gunnels appear to be vinyl clad aluminum. The vinyl is very thin - perhaps the thickness of card stock. It appears the canoe side that laid on the ground collected water in the underwale (is that a word?) and gradually the water forced its way under the edge of the vinyl and the process of the vinyl separating from the aluminum gunnel has started.

Clearly replacing the gunnels is an option, but not one that I would like to take on. I've not done it before and with shipping costs it is quite pricey to obtain them.

In trying to keep down the costs associated with bringing this canoe back into service I'd like to leave the existing gunnel in place and see if I can't patch it some way.

One suggestion I've received (thanks Mike) is to take a paint scraper and scrape away the loose and flaking vinyl. Then clean the surfaces and apply a thin layer of epoxy over the exposed metal to create a physical barrier in inhibit water penetration at the vinyl/metal transition points. Then paint the gunnel using an appropriate paint.

Welcoming other ideas at this point that don't involve replacing the gunnels. I'm looking for inexpensive solutions that could work - Plan B could be replacing the gunnels but only as a last resort.

 

[Alan Gage]

Aluminum gunwales are usually pretty easy to replace. For a couple hundred bucks you could probably buy a replacement set. If you had a Swift or Wenonah dealer nearby they can usually get gunwales shipped to them with a shipment of boats for no extra freight.

As for repairing what's their I like Mikes idea of just scraping off the loose stuff. I don't know that it would be necessary to coat with epoxy but it wouldn't hurt. Some flat black spray paint would make it look nice.

Alan

 

[Guest]

As for repairing what's their I like Mikes idea of just scraping off the loose stuff. I don't know that it would be necessary to coat with epoxy but it wouldn't hurt. Some flat black spray paint would make it look nice.

Actually my first suggestion, and what I would do, is replace the gunwales. And having seen the new cruddiness photos of those gunwales replacing them is still my suggestion. The covering on those gunwales looks so toasty that I think you would be using lots of time and elbow grease in any attempt to cover the missing areas.

The only way I would attempt to salvage those gunwales would be if I could remove all of the covering down to bare aluminum. Again, lots of time and elbow grease.

I have only regunwaled one canoe with aluminum gunwales. Those were not pre-bent for the sheerline and it was such a PITA that swore I would never use aluminum again.

As far as shipping costs for replacement gunwales some manufacturers will include them in a load of boats going to a retailer. Or pick them up at Blue Mountain Outfitters, who have replacement gunwales in stock.

 

[Alan Gage]

I have only regunwaled one canoe with aluminum gunwales. Those were not pre-bent for the sheerline and it was such a PITA that swore I would never use aluminum again.

I've done two. The first was what looked to be an old woodstrip Prosptector, although neither I nor the seller had any idea it was a stripper until I started sanding off all the black paint. It was the first canoe I ever did any sort of restoration on and my only goal was to make it serviceable on the cheap within my limited skill set. That meant buying a pair of Wenonah aluminum gunwales (available in black) from NW Canoe in St. Paul. The pretty extreme shear line did pose a bit of a challenge but with the help of a rubber mallet I was able to get them into place. Didn't help that these gunwales were made for thin composite hulls and not fat wood ones. An extra set of hands walked by at just the right time or else I never would have gotten them by myself. I think the only reason I was able to get that job done was because I didn't know what I was doing. I don't think I'd have the guts to force them that hard now.

The 2nd one was my first wood strip. I wanted to save weight and didn't think I had the talent to do wood ones. It was a Kite (Osprey) and had a decent rise in the shear. On that one I used the 2 piece Bell gunwales and don't recall any particular difficulty, likely thanks to the two piece design. Having gotten a little smarter I also had a couple friends stop over to help me hold everything in place until I could get a couple rivets in.

The Bell design is quite attractive as far as aluminum gunwales go and I believe it's easier to install. As far as I know they're new incarnation, Northstar Canoes, is using the same design so it should be available.

Earlier this evening I was thinking about it and I think you're right about the need to seal those with epoxy if trying to salvage. After scraping off the loose vinyl you'd need to seal the whole thing to keep the rest from peeling. That's assuming there's any left.

Alan

 

[tump_lion]

i'd start cheap & dirty -- bronze-brush, masking tape, spray-on rust-oleum crinkle-paint...

 

[cflcanoe]

Plasticoat from the local hardware store. It is used on handles of tools. First tough clean as discussed above.

 

[Guest]

I've done two. The pretty extreme shear line did pose a bit of a challenge but with the help of a rubber mallet I was able to get them into place. Didn't help that these gunwales were made for thin composite hulls and not fat wood ones. An extra set of hands walked by at just the right time or else I never would have gotten them by myself. I think the only reason I was able to get that job done was because I didn't know what I was doing. I don't think I'd have the guts to force them that hard now.

The 2nd one was my first wood strip. On that one I used the 2 piece Bell gunwales and don't recall any particular difficulty, likely thanks to the two piece design. Having gotten a little smarter I also had a couple friends stop over to help me hold everything in place until I could get a couple rivets in.

The Bell design is quite attractive as far as aluminum gunwales go and I believe it's easier to install. As far as I know they're new incarnation, Northstar Canoes, is using the same design so it should be available.

Alan, the one canoe I regunwaled with (one piece) aluminum gunwales was an MR Fantasy (13 feet long x 30 ½ inches wide), with a lot of rise at the stems (22 inch stems and 15 inch center). There was a whole lot of forced curvature going on and it took three people, two metal putty knives (slid along between the hull and gunwale channel to open space for the hull material), one rubber mallet to pound that sucker into place between the putty knife blades and 1000 swear words when it started to kink.

Using a two piece aluminum gunwale seems the way to go if regunwaling with aluminum, especially if the AL gunwales were not made for that boat.

Earlier this evening I was thinking about it and I think you're right about the need to seal those with epoxy if trying to salvage. After scraping off the loose vinyl you'd need to seal the whole thing to keep the rest from peeling. That's assuming there's any left.

When I saw the amount of missing vinyl, and the sand infiltrated under the cracks I had second thoughts about trying to salvage those gunwales, at least while retaining with the existing/intact coating.

If those several places of vinyl coating have begun to let go I would be suspicious about the areas that “appear” intact. I don’t like doing things twice (or thrice), and going back to recover additional sections of vinyl cladding that lifted a month later would be discouraging.

Plasticoat from the local hardware store. It is used on handles of tools.

I have tried Plasti-dip in a few gear applications. That stuff doesn’t keep well once opened, so I coated all kinds of things with it to use it up; large eye bolts used as tie downs on a trailer, tool-hanger spring clips, and etc.

None of it wore especially well and it was kind of grippystickyrubbery, so probably not ideal for gunwale covering.

I just Googled Plasti-dip. Well, dang, there are a lot of choices beyond the typical hardware store choice. Maybe one of those would be functionally durable as a gunwale coating.

http://www.plastidip.com/

If Willie tries to retain the existing vinyl cladding (eesh) the missing areas will need to have some thickened surface applied to bring the bare spots back flush with the existing vinyl, and to seal up the loose/open ends against future water/sand infiltration. Any abrupt transition between the existing cladding and the replacement coat would be an invitation to future damage.

Willie – A test paddle, bow backwards as a solo with trim weight forward or as a tandem is probably the first order of business, to help decide how much time and material cost you are willing to put into the boat, and whether you plan to keep it* or flip it*.

It* seems like it was designed as a pocket tandem, and might make a decent big boy solo, especially if you drew the gunwales in an inch or two.

*It being a composite Swift Otter, a Yost design. Does anyone know the history, lineage, intended use etc of DY’s Otter?

 

[memaquay]

I know you specifically stated that you didn't want to replace the gunwales.........but.........one or two boards of ash or a similar hardwood, probably about 20 or 30 bucks, certainly no more than forty, a table saw, router and palm sander...........only takes a couple of hours to make new wooden gunwales.

 

[Robin]

I agree with Memaquay....easy fix with some ash, makes for a beautiful canoe with ash gunnels. If your thinking of resale, the ash sells, if the canoe has to spend it's life outside, maybe not worth it.

 

[Jim Dodd]

Just me but a patch, will always look like a patch. I'd replace, with either aluminum or wood, which ever you like. If you do it yourself, it can be very rewarding !

Jim

 

[Will Derness]

The voices of advice here have become a chorus - " replace the gunnels". It is a nice canoe and from its 45 lb weight appears to be a gel coated kevlar canoe. Putting new gunnels, along with new seats, etc., on the canoe would dress it up quite well.

However, my ownership is a constraint on that option. My sense is I'm more at the apprentice level than the many voices of craftsmen calling for gunwale replacement. I've done enough projects to know that my first time at something usually involves messing up some material before I get it right. So, there is a fair chance I could ruin a set of gunnels trying it myself. My wood working skills are pretty much limited to framing carpentry; I have neither the tools nor skill to perform finish carpentry.

An extra set, or 2, of hands seems to be recommended if you are replacing gunnels. My extra set of hands is my wife. She is a nice lady, but she isn't very helpful as she doesn't have an intuitive sense of what needs to be done and must be given explicit and detailed instructions on where and when I need help. I really do try to avoid asking her for help.

The way I look at it, scraping flaking vinyl off and then using epoxy and paint to cover the existing gunnels is something I've got in my skill set. It is inexpensive. I have the materials. Time consuming, but no more so than trying to install new gunnels for the first time. And replacing them is still an option if the recovering approach proves to be not so good a solution. I would have only wasted the time and small material costs I invested in recovering them.

So for now I'll continue to explore non-replacement options. There is enough work to do on the seats, yoke, etc to keep me busy until I get to the gunnels.

I took it out today for the first time, solo, and the canoe handled quite nicely. Out in the rising tide, the bow was responsive to turning strokes and the canoe ferried quite nicely across the current. Though breezy today, it wasn't hard to deal with the wind. I like shallow arch canoes and this one has that character. This canoe is a keeper.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions - it is a nice community of paddlers here.

 

[Guest]

Willie, FWIW, from the 1993 Paddler Magazine Buyers Guide:

Swift Otter
Sport/Cruising canoe
15’ long
35” beam
19”/12 ½”/19” depth

Three composite lay ups (doesn’t say, but probably something along the lines of kevlar “light”, kevlar (and gel coat?) and fiberglass.
44 lbs, $1445
48 lbs, $1545
52 lbs, $895

 

[Will Derness]

Wow! Deep into the print archives for that magazine. Thanks.

And from the feel it gave me on the water I'd say Sport/Crusing is an apt name for characterizing the canoe. Despite its beam it still felt nimble. Dodging T-storms and power boats I only took a quick spin on the Intercostal. On a nicer day I'll give a longer cruise.

UPDATE: Gunnels

I just finished hard scraping loose gunnel covering off. The covering is thin and flakes off just the way paint would. Perhaps it is a paint that cures to a matt smooth finish. Worth a call to Swift, give them a serial number and see if they have any info of what was used. If McCrea can keep canoe data that long, no reason Swift couldn't as well.

 

[Guest]

UPDATE: Gunnels

I just finished hard scraping loose gunnel covering off. The covering is thin and flakes off just the way paint would. Perhaps it is a paint that cures to a matt smooth finish.

Willie, that brings me back to the question. How hard would it be to relieve the gunwales of all traces of that thin covering.

The aluminum gunwales appear soundly in place, and you have time and elbow grease to spend. What amount of scraping and sanding is involved in getting all of the gunwale cladding off?

Taking them down to bare aluminum would take time and effort, but require no special skills. It looks to be a nice, kinda pricey at the time composite hull that pleases you.

As such I’d much rather start with the intact aluminum gunwales clean of existing cladding, flaky or not. If you scraped and sanded them down to clean and smooth aluminum I’m not sure what the best top coat would be, if anything. Maybe just sand/polish them down to 1500 wet with aluminum brightener.

So, is it gunnel or gunwale?

And if so is it inwale and outwale, or innel and outnnel?

 

[Will Derness]

I'll defer to a linguist to resolve the gunnel gunwale issue. Though I suspect the linguist will bring up the matter of grey or gray.

The nice responsive gal at a Swift called me back. It is an anodized gunnel and the surface is the fine powder that is bonded to the aluminum during the mfg process. When asked, she said customers do repaint them and she recommends Rustoleum.

 

[Guest]

I'll defer to a linguist to resolve the gunnel gunwale issue. Though I suspect the linguist will bring up the matter of grey or gray.

The nice responsive gal at a Swift called me back. It is an anodized gunnel and the surface is the fine powder that is bonded to the aluminum during the mfg process. When asked, she said customers do repaint them and she recommends Rustoleum.

I have worked on a variety of derelict and dumpster-ready canoes and I have never seen an anodized gunwale delaminate. WTF?

If you have the Certificate of Origin perhaps you could pursue a warranty claim. Meh, who keeps track of the CoO from a 20 year old canoe? Or even a new one?

Otherwise there’s only one thing to do Willie. Learn how to re-anodize aluminum at home in the carport. I’m sure the missus will help if you offer her a full PPE suit and respirator.

Nice canoe, it deserves some TLC.

EDIT:

Grey or gray

http://grammarist.com/spelling/gray-grey/

Gunwale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunwale

Or Gunnel:

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...english/gunnel

Unless you have an ell-like blennioid fish holding your canoe together……

 

[Guest]

The nice responsive gal at a Swift called me back. It is an anodized gunnel and the surface is the fine powder that is bonded to the aluminum during the mfg process.

Nice that you got a prompt call back from Swift, but this doesn’t look like anodized, or at least I have never seem anodization lift off in sections.

 

[sailsman63]

Not sure that that looks like anodized to me, either, though I am not an expert. I Believe that it is way to thick. (One aluminum finishing source I found on the web was quoting .0008" as a rather thick anodization.)

That being said, I have run across several references to anodization flaking, though no good photos. Most of these cases involve either overheating/stressing or 7000 series aluminum (high strength. Would seem to be a good candidate for gunwales. Also tends to corrode, and your bare aluminum is corroded a bit)

Can't tell for sure from the photos, but it looks like the gunwale is riveted on. What condition are those rivets in? If many of them are loose, it might be simplest to drill them out, and then work on the gunwales off the boat. This would open up some more options for dealing with the rest of that covering, whatever it is. Since the gunwales are already in the correct curve, you probably would have an easier time than some of the guys who have installed new aluminum.

 

[stripperguy]

Will,
While the gal at Swift may have been helpful and responsive, she has not given you accurate information.
There are two types of anodize for aluminum. The most common is nothing more than a forced oxidation, that creates a barrier from further oxidation, and adds a blue to black color. Color depends on which alloy, those gunnels (gunwales, gunwhales??) are likely 2000 or 6000 series, highly unlikely that they are 7000 series, as this alloy would be too expensive for non aerospace applications. There is no measurable dimensional change with this type of anodize, thus, it could never flake off. It is merely colored oxidation that penetrates a few thousandths of an inch.
The other type of anodize is a hard anodize, also called a Marten Hard Coat...It too, is a forced oxidation, but with a penetration and build up that can never exceed .003 inch per surface. Again, this hard coat can never flake off.

How much effort would it be to remove those gunnels and strip them down to the substrate? Once stripped, a Rustoleum rattle can would make them sparkle for a while.

 

[Guest]

If you have the Certificate of Origin perhaps you could pursue a warranty claim. Meh, who keeps track of the CoO from a 20 year old canoe? Or even a new one?

I was not serious about a warranty claim, and for clarity sake I should explain that “suggestion”.

After we had finished outfitting Willie’s new Wenonah Wilderness I discovered that he had left the Manufacturer’s Certificate of Origin in my shop. I called him and explained that I had lucked into a free kevlar Wilderness, that I had the never signed or completed “title” and that he could deliver my new boat at his convenience.

Willie is easily provoked, and was going to spend several hours driving back to my shop to retrieve the certificate. I suggested that this was stupid, and I could just mail it to him. Willie expressed concern that things sometimes get lost in the mail. I convinced him that it would be fine.

I addressed an envelope to Willie, stamp, return address and licked the seal. And then let the seal dry to just barely tacky, pressed it to the envelope and tore it back off, leaving wee bits of envelope paper stuck to the flap.

And then I mailed him the empty envelope.

The telephone call a few days later was hilarious.