No, see post 1 for my feelings on this.
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Freestyle thread
- Thread starter Robin
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No, see post 1 for my feelings on this.
I’ve been thinking about the forum’s recent FreeStyle decisions.
Canoeing can be a skill intensive outdoor sport. Attention to paddle physics, paddler bio-mechanics and the boats actions in the water can extend distance covered or shorten the time commitment, and more importantly for most on this forum, reduce strain on once more perfect bodies.
FreeStyle’s Technical or Functional component, with inputs from Pat Moore, Harold Deal and Tom Foster among others, has focused on these considerations and promotes technically functional paddling. FreeStyle Instructors comprise the American Canoe Association’s technical flatwater/ canoe tripping corps.
FreeStyle’s Interpretive Performance group with inputs from Mike Galt, Mark Molina and Karen Knight has often compromised technical skills for the flare and flash needed in public presentations.
Nobody I know makes a living canoe tripping. Those choosing to not use the hull’s shape by paddling tandems backward and not heeling to enhance control, those causing offside yaw by carrying the paddleblade behind their bodies and those slowing their boats with long in-water recoveries harm no-one but themselves, and not significantly.
Canoeing is a funny sport. Most of us learned from grandfathers or camp counselors; a long time ago and none too well. It is interesting to contrast canoeing with golf, where every club is stanced, held and in swung differently but precisely. Technical Canoe instructors can be as precise as golf pros.
If canoeing is a skill intensive sport, it seems counter to the purposes of this forum to dismiss more precise information on paddling techniques. Surely some on the forum appreciate discussions of modern canoeing skills. That the J stroke corrects for the yaw it causes might have been fun and interesting to discuss. It doesn't bother me that some would rather J on; we're all welcome to ignore forum posts we find unhelpful. It's more problematical when the discussion is forbidden.
Canoeing can be a skill intensive outdoor sport. Attention to paddle physics, paddler bio-mechanics and the boats actions in the water can extend distance covered or shorten the time commitment, and more importantly for most on this forum, reduce strain on once more perfect bodies.
FreeStyle’s Technical or Functional component, with inputs from Pat Moore, Harold Deal and Tom Foster among others, has focused on these considerations and promotes technically functional paddling. FreeStyle Instructors comprise the American Canoe Association’s technical flatwater/ canoe tripping corps.
FreeStyle’s Interpretive Performance group with inputs from Mike Galt, Mark Molina and Karen Knight has often compromised technical skills for the flare and flash needed in public presentations.
Nobody I know makes a living canoe tripping. Those choosing to not use the hull’s shape by paddling tandems backward and not heeling to enhance control, those causing offside yaw by carrying the paddleblade behind their bodies and those slowing their boats with long in-water recoveries harm no-one but themselves, and not significantly.
Canoeing is a funny sport. Most of us learned from grandfathers or camp counselors; a long time ago and none too well. It is interesting to contrast canoeing with golf, where every club is stanced, held and in swung differently but precisely. Technical Canoe instructors can be as precise as golf pros.
If canoeing is a skill intensive sport, it seems counter to the purposes of this forum to dismiss more precise information on paddling techniques. Surely some on the forum appreciate discussions of modern canoeing skills. That the J stroke corrects for the yaw it causes might have been fun and interesting to discuss. It doesn't bother me that some would rather J on; we're all welcome to ignore forum posts we find unhelpful. It's more problematical when the discussion is forbidden.
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Well said Charlie
Several years ago we were just 2 portages in from a put in at Algonquin PP when I saw a canoe approaching. It was leaned, though not to the rail, and moving straight and true. The solo paddler in his WC slowed and we exchanged remarks about the weather. There'd been a severe storm (possibly a microburst) the night before; we'd both hunkered down through it, though on different lakes. The canvas packs trimming his beautiful canvas cedar canoe told me he preferred a traditional way of travel, camp, and escape from the crazy ol' world. One might argue that the efficient strokes he employed across that lake and around the next point were purely pragmatic, and not at all artistic and free spirited. The smile on his face told me otherwise.
What I'm trying to say is this; days before this freestyle thread went sideways I was watching Bill Mason in his film Waterwalker, soloing along the shores of L. Superior, poling and lining his way up a river. Again, his paddling might have been merely practical; no fun filled "flair" enjoyed at all. But if you ask me I'd say there's such a small and arbitrary line separating the practical from the creative, as to make this fuzzy and fudged line completely meaningless.
Now, I'm never gonna do a running one handed pry, but both the sheer delight and the dependable repertoire of paddle strokes make me a better and a happier canoe tripper. I think I understand, but don't entirely agree with, Robin's preferred focus on traditional no fuss no fancy doodle tripping. It seems there's been some wiggle room in this trad vision of his over the years and throughout some threads. This makes me think this site is more inclusive than exclusive. I'd like to think so anyway. As much as I love the traditional, I'm gonna keep wiggling for more room and see where it gets me. This house of canoe tripping is a big old house with lots of history. Although I only wander around a couple rooms most of the time, I'd like to see what lays beyond a couple of these doors.
What I'm trying to say is this; days before this freestyle thread went sideways I was watching Bill Mason in his film Waterwalker, soloing along the shores of L. Superior, poling and lining his way up a river. Again, his paddling might have been merely practical; no fun filled "flair" enjoyed at all. But if you ask me I'd say there's such a small and arbitrary line separating the practical from the creative, as to make this fuzzy and fudged line completely meaningless.
Now, I'm never gonna do a running one handed pry, but both the sheer delight and the dependable repertoire of paddle strokes make me a better and a happier canoe tripper. I think I understand, but don't entirely agree with, Robin's preferred focus on traditional no fuss no fancy doodle tripping. It seems there's been some wiggle room in this trad vision of his over the years and throughout some threads. This makes me think this site is more inclusive than exclusive. I'd like to think so anyway. As much as I love the traditional, I'm gonna keep wiggling for more room and see where it gets me. This house of canoe tripping is a big old house with lots of history. Although I only wander around a couple rooms most of the time, I'd like to see what lays beyond a couple of these doors.
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Well Boys, I tried it out again this morning and sure enough if I Google "Paddling Net" I can find it every time. I'll bet that you could too if you cared enough to try.
Up till a couple of weeks ago this whole rumpus never did come up. Where was the great yearning, questing, driving need to immerse yourselves in things Freestyle before this time? I guess it hadn't popped into your collective heads yet. But now, you reminded me of a nest of baby birds, your mouths all open squawking not "worms" but "Freestyle! Freestyle!".
Access to things Freestyle isn't forbidden to you but it evidently isn't going to be dropped into your mouths on this form. Robin, who if you remember, saved this site and continues to labor at it, has decided for reasons that are sufficient to him not to have it here. For the love of Mike that ought to be 'nuff said.
Rob
Up till a couple of weeks ago this whole rumpus never did come up. Where was the great yearning, questing, driving need to immerse yourselves in things Freestyle before this time? I guess it hadn't popped into your collective heads yet. But now, you reminded me of a nest of baby birds, your mouths all open squawking not "worms" but "Freestyle! Freestyle!".
Access to things Freestyle isn't forbidden to you but it evidently isn't going to be dropped into your mouths on this form. Robin, who if you remember, saved this site and continues to labor at it, has decided for reasons that are sufficient to him not to have it here. For the love of Mike that ought to be 'nuff said.
Rob
Actually I have wandered over to the other site, because I've "cared enough to try." What puts me off that place is the smarmy prickly rants on a certain column, though of course anyone can just ignore that. What's nice though, is having the choice. I much prefer this site, though for a second there Oldie, with your last post, I'd momentarily gotten confused which site - which thread I was on. LOL. As far as the lack of any "collective yearning in things freestyle" up to this time, maybe we'd all assumed this site is growing bigger and better all the time; room for growth and learning. Robin's decision puts a curb on both those things. That's something I'll live with it. And when I "care enough to try" I'll keep coming back to this site for some give and take, learning and growing.
I hope I've lost no friends on this site. I'm outta here for now. Keep well.
Brad
I hope I've lost no friends on this site. I'm outta here for now. Keep well.
Brad
Freestyle canoeing, by unforeseeable historical accident, has created an intractable problem for itself. The problem is the very word "freestyle".
"Freestyle" is now a word that connotes choreographed canoe ballets to music. That's what one sees on most "freestyle" videos. That's why lots of beginning and even experienced canoeists reject "freestyle" as having relevance to their daily canoeing or extended canoe tripping. That's very, very unfortunate, because choreographed canoe ballets to music are not what so-called freestyle canoeing is really about.
That's why I reject the term entirely. The components of the canoe ballets are nothing more than the ages-old, traditional, classical moves and maneuvers of single blade boat control. The same moves the Indians and other native cultures developed in canoes since the last ice age. The same stuff Bill Mason taught. The same stuff that's taught by any competent canoe instructor.
Marc Ornstein's group seems to recognize this semantic problem by entitling their new videos "functional freestyle". The obvious point they are trying to make with this new terminology is that the individual freestyle moves all have traditional canoe tripping functions. I don't think Marc and his fellow instructors go far enough, however, terminologically. The word "freestyle" simply should be abandoned altogether. It drives away the very paddlers it is meant to attract and in most need of the instruction. Simply go back to traditional terminology such as "basic flatwater canoeing" and "advanced flatwater canoeing" -- and then have something called "linked maneuver canoe dancing" for those few paddlers who want to engage in what is now called "interpretive freestyle".
Would anyone on this site conceivably be opposed to videos or discussions about "basic flatwater canoeing technique" or "advanced flatwater canoeing technique"? I hope not.
The basic moves and maneuvers of canoeing have always been subject to different terminologies and instructional approaches. I like Patrick Moore's simple diagram that explains every possible canoe move:
This diagram requires some extended explanation or possibly a video. This site -- "A Place for Open Canoes" -- should be the ideal one for such explanations and discussions.
"Freestyle" is now a word that connotes choreographed canoe ballets to music. That's what one sees on most "freestyle" videos. That's why lots of beginning and even experienced canoeists reject "freestyle" as having relevance to their daily canoeing or extended canoe tripping. That's very, very unfortunate, because choreographed canoe ballets to music are not what so-called freestyle canoeing is really about.
That's why I reject the term entirely. The components of the canoe ballets are nothing more than the ages-old, traditional, classical moves and maneuvers of single blade boat control. The same moves the Indians and other native cultures developed in canoes since the last ice age. The same stuff Bill Mason taught. The same stuff that's taught by any competent canoe instructor.
Marc Ornstein's group seems to recognize this semantic problem by entitling their new videos "functional freestyle". The obvious point they are trying to make with this new terminology is that the individual freestyle moves all have traditional canoe tripping functions. I don't think Marc and his fellow instructors go far enough, however, terminologically. The word "freestyle" simply should be abandoned altogether. It drives away the very paddlers it is meant to attract and in most need of the instruction. Simply go back to traditional terminology such as "basic flatwater canoeing" and "advanced flatwater canoeing" -- and then have something called "linked maneuver canoe dancing" for those few paddlers who want to engage in what is now called "interpretive freestyle".
Would anyone on this site conceivably be opposed to videos or discussions about "basic flatwater canoeing technique" or "advanced flatwater canoeing technique"? I hope not.
The basic moves and maneuvers of canoeing have always been subject to different terminologies and instructional approaches. I like Patrick Moore's simple diagram that explains every possible canoe move:
This diagram requires some extended explanation or possibly a video. This site -- "A Place for Open Canoes" -- should be the ideal one for such explanations and discussions.
We're all quite competent in that regard and many of us are following along and participating in that thread. But what's so confusing is why there is a desire to push people away from this site to another in order to view a how to clinic on canoe strokes from a master? Something that, as far as I'm concerned, should have been considered a feather in the cap of this site.
It's Robin's site and he can do as he pleases. That's fine. But it can't help give me pause for concern because many of the things I post aren't related to canoe tripping. I've got two, very detailed, wood strip canoe building threads. They take many hours of time. But neither of them are for a boat that will ever see tripping duty or that most members here would even be interested in paddling. How much time do I want to invest into posting things like that knowing, if there should be a technical problem with one of those threads, it might simply be ignored and left to rot on the vine? That's not a threat and I don't plan on leaving but I can't be the only one thinking similar thoughts.
Alan
REJECTING the noun FreeStyle seems a little over the top, more so from someone who was not part of the discussion when it counted twenty five years ago. "The Group", Mike Galt, Frank Hosford, Lou Glaros, Doug Sphar, Ed and Debbie DeBerrys, Eric Schooly, Nancy Greene, Mary Lou Green, Dana Grover, Harry Roberts, Tom MacKenzie Steve and Carol Tunnicliffe, Deb Welbes and yours truly met in Florida the winter of 1990 if memory serves to lay out a presentation to the ACA Board for inclusion as an Activity Cmte. Of note, the Wisconsin contingent of Phill Sigglekow, Pat Moore, Dave Butler and Guy Rogers were invited but didn't come. They were missed, but having a name seemed an immediate necessity.
The nouns Freestyle and Sport were debated. Sport seemed to confuse with the non paddle skill focus of sportsmen interested in Hook and Bullet issues, so..... FreeStyle it became, perhaps because my suggestion of "Widget Work" canoeing failed to gain traction despite the attractive alliteration. We should have started using the qualifying adjectives Technical and Interpretive immediately, but that train eased down the tracks and away from the station too. It's interesting to see some Interpretive paddlers wagging their boat tails by carrying the blade too far aft. That technical glitch comes from Karen Knight's unique style; incorporated in multiple tapes and CDs, it has now entered the culture. So it goes. Maybe we should start using adjectives?
The nouns Freestyle and Sport were debated. Sport seemed to confuse with the non paddle skill focus of sportsmen interested in Hook and Bullet issues, so..... FreeStyle it became, perhaps because my suggestion of "Widget Work" canoeing failed to gain traction despite the attractive alliteration. We should have started using the qualifying adjectives Technical and Interpretive immediately, but that train eased down the tracks and away from the station too. It's interesting to see some Interpretive paddlers wagging their boat tails by carrying the blade too far aft. That technical glitch comes from Karen Knight's unique style; incorporated in multiple tapes and CDs, it has now entered the culture. So it goes. Maybe we should start using adjectives?
Charlie, your comment misses the point . . . the current terminological point. It doesn't matter who was in an ACA group 25 years ago when some terminology and curricula were being formulated. I'm talking about the deleterious and counterproductive general understanding of the word "freestyle" today.
Today, "freestyle canoeing" -- regardless of what some ancient committee, or you, or I, think it should mean -- definitely connotes to the vast majority of potential canoeists, actual canoeists, canoe forum posters, and canoe forum administrators nothing more than irrelevant (to them) choreographed canoe ballet to music. Very few people are making the connection that so-called freestyle is nothing more than advanced flatwater canoeing technique. Just look at this thread for proof.
That's why I think, regardless of its reasonable and well-intentioned ancient history, the word "freestyle" should simply be dropped from both the basic technical curriculum and the interpretive curriculum. Nuke the word forever. Otherwise, that word will continue to drive away the very paddlers who would benefit the most from the courses. I note this very thing has been done in the for the names of the various regional symposia: "freestyle symposium" has been replaced by the more benign and understandable "canoe symposium". Someone must agree with my point of view.
I wish Marc Ornstein would return if only to explain what he's trying to do, even if there's some restriction on his actually doing it here. Anyone uninterested can simply ignore the discussion.
While reading the p-net thread I found this post by 85dragonfly particularly relevant to the discussion here:
"Such good discussion going on here! In response to some thoughts expressed in previous posts on this thread...no matter what sort(s) of paddling one prefers, it is primarily about boat control in whatever conditions one finds oneself in. Instruction in any sort of paddling will stress that, and teach to that. FS paddling, and instructon, is just one means to the same end. Those of us who consider ourselves "FreeStyle paddlers" (whatever that may mean)use the knowledge/techniques we have acquired in learning how to "drill holes in the water", as someone somewhere has said, in our everyday paddling all the time. The rivers in the videos attached here are just such a wonderful place to apply and experiment with all of that practical knowledge. We don't "rail" stuff in real life, usually don't do 180s, 'cause it isn't necessary. But in learning how to do that "fancy" stuff, we are really learning how to be a better partner with our boat (the goal of any paddling instruction), how to "speak" to it, and how to listen as well. Any paddling experience is an on-going conversation between you and the boat about moving thru the water right here, right now. And like any conversation, there's give-and-take, and adjustments on the fly - often, on such small streams as these, several adjustments in the midst of one stroke. Just one way to get to the same place... "
"Such good discussion going on here! In response to some thoughts expressed in previous posts on this thread...no matter what sort(s) of paddling one prefers, it is primarily about boat control in whatever conditions one finds oneself in. Instruction in any sort of paddling will stress that, and teach to that. FS paddling, and instructon, is just one means to the same end. Those of us who consider ourselves "FreeStyle paddlers" (whatever that may mean)use the knowledge/techniques we have acquired in learning how to "drill holes in the water", as someone somewhere has said, in our everyday paddling all the time. The rivers in the videos attached here are just such a wonderful place to apply and experiment with all of that practical knowledge. We don't "rail" stuff in real life, usually don't do 180s, 'cause it isn't necessary. But in learning how to do that "fancy" stuff, we are really learning how to be a better partner with our boat (the goal of any paddling instruction), how to "speak" to it, and how to listen as well. Any paddling experience is an on-going conversation between you and the boat about moving thru the water right here, right now. And like any conversation, there's give-and-take, and adjustments on the fly - often, on such small streams as these, several adjustments in the midst of one stroke. Just one way to get to the same place... "
This from Kim, known here as yellow canoe;
" I was diagnosed with cancer last week and was looking forward to giving some hints in the FreeStyle thread that had technical issues and was erased. I want to make one of my goals to get back to tripping in a canoe and FreeStyle will come first to dust off the inevitable rust. I suspect I cannot set foot in a shop with cedar dust that catches mold if I am on chemotherapy. While I enjoy reading your shop projects and trip reports, in no way can I actively participate in them.
I feel well though that will be changed with future surgeries and chemo I am sure. For now I am focused on the light and the joy of photography. My first shoot was a "poor me" shoot in a graveyard. I got a dopeslap from that.. The light shone through true and bright. I'm working on photojournaling and letting the mood come to me. One of the members who left this site has been such a good Internet friend. He is so supportive. I suspect many of you would be the same if I had publicized my situation. The last thing I want is a pity party. What I do want to read ( as I can't post.. It seems I have been banned)
Yes I was upset at the lack of motivation to resolve the technical issues as I had contributed some money. I don't want it back. I was more upset as, looking forward to days in a hospital or in chemo , my participation would have been limited. That thread gave me hope.
At this time , hope is everything. May you all never be diagnosed with cancer though you feel well. I have had FS friends with cancer and they are alive and kicking so until I am dead I am not dead"
Thanks to Marc (aka awesome paddler and just nice guy with out an agenda), Robyn Lowenthal, who has shared books with me and recipes( what a cook) , Charlie Wilson of course, and 85 Dragonfly who along with his wife sent the greatest card! I love you all.
And that is what FreeStyle is all about.
Kim ( aka yelllowcanoe)"
" I was diagnosed with cancer last week and was looking forward to giving some hints in the FreeStyle thread that had technical issues and was erased. I want to make one of my goals to get back to tripping in a canoe and FreeStyle will come first to dust off the inevitable rust. I suspect I cannot set foot in a shop with cedar dust that catches mold if I am on chemotherapy. While I enjoy reading your shop projects and trip reports, in no way can I actively participate in them.
I feel well though that will be changed with future surgeries and chemo I am sure. For now I am focused on the light and the joy of photography. My first shoot was a "poor me" shoot in a graveyard. I got a dopeslap from that.. The light shone through true and bright. I'm working on photojournaling and letting the mood come to me. One of the members who left this site has been such a good Internet friend. He is so supportive. I suspect many of you would be the same if I had publicized my situation. The last thing I want is a pity party. What I do want to read ( as I can't post.. It seems I have been banned)
Yes I was upset at the lack of motivation to resolve the technical issues as I had contributed some money. I don't want it back. I was more upset as, looking forward to days in a hospital or in chemo , my participation would have been limited. That thread gave me hope.
At this time , hope is everything. May you all never be diagnosed with cancer though you feel well. I have had FS friends with cancer and they are alive and kicking so until I am dead I am not dead"
Thanks to Marc (aka awesome paddler and just nice guy with out an agenda), Robyn Lowenthal, who has shared books with me and recipes( what a cook) , Charlie Wilson of course, and 85 Dragonfly who along with his wife sent the greatest card! I love you all.
And that is what FreeStyle is all about.
Kim ( aka yelllowcanoe)"
Yes, I'm sorry about Kim's current health issue. The reason she can't post is that a few months ago, on more than one occasion, I asked her to respect others opinions, tone down her responses, and most importantly don't bash the site and announce that she is done here, (I quit) which she has done on more than one occasion in the past. I warned her she would be removed from the membership if she quits again. Well, she quit and I followed through, her posting privileges have been removed.
I would never discuss this publicly, but this above post was so wrong in so many ways, I felt I needed to clear the air.
I would never discuss this publicly, but this above post was so wrong in so many ways, I felt I needed to clear the air.
