Dumb terminology question

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Is a palm roll the technique that is used in an 'Indian Stroke'?

Please don't get to jargony on me. I read some stuff trying to confirm this and I think it confused me more...
 
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Yes the palm roll is used in the "Indian Stroke". The latter is more universally referred to as an inwater recovery.

The palm roll involves rmoving your grip hand from thumb down at the end of the J stroke, to thumb up, without moving your paddle,

Without that little movement the slice of the paddle forward in the water is more awkward and apt to wander.

Palm rolls exist as they help you refrain from becoming a pretzel.
 
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Add the Indian Stroke to you skill set, and you will love it for maneuvering silently along the shoreline. It is a wonderful stroke that further connects yourself with the complete and singular feeling of paddle, canoe, and water - all as one. Works best with a thin blade feather edge paddle (for ease of silent slicing) with a well shaped grip.
 
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It’s a beautiful way to quietly slide closer to loons, moose…
On misty mornings you’ll feel like you’re gently flying.
Unforgetable.
 
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It’s a beautiful way to quietly slide closer to loons, moose…
On misty mornings you’ll feel like you’re gently flying.
Unforgetable.

Oh yes! I haven't been close to a loon or a moose but the silent motion can't be beat. That's when I really get in my canoeing groove. I love the silent travel, coming around corners and watching Great Blue Herons take off. It just blows me away.
 

Glenn MacGrady

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A palm roll can be used for a few things:

- At the end of a stroke to set up an in-water return for the Indian stroke.

- At the end of a stroke to set up a partial in-water return or even an aerial return. The palm roll in these cases provides some of the correction force.

- At the end of a stroke to set up the on-side low brace turn that freestylers call a "christie".

- At the end of an un-palm-rolled in-water return in order to set up the plant for the next stroke. This is essentially an Indian stroke with the palm roll at the end of the in-water return instead of at the beginning of the in-water return. I don't know if this stroke has a universal name. Some call it the Florida stroke, while others call something else (a variation of the Canadian stroke) the Florida stroke.

I guess I violated the "no jargon" request.

Thus spake the Jabberwock.
 
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A palm roll can be used for a few things:

- At the end of a stroke to set up an in-water return for the Indian stroke.

- At the end of a stroke to set up a partial in-water return or even an aerial return. The palm roll in these cases provides some of the correction force.

- At the end of a stroke to set up the on-side low brace turn that freestylers call a "christie".

- At the end of an un-palm-rolled in-water return in order to set up the plant for the next stroke. This is essentially an Indian stroke with the palm roll at the end of the in-water return instead of at the beginning of the in-water return. I don't know if this stroke has a universal name. Some call it the Florida stroke, while others call something else (a variation of the Canadian stroke) the Florida stroke.

I guess I violated the "no jargon" request.

Thus spake the Jabberwock.


Yes you did! Even I a purveyor of canoe jargon am confused about this

At the end of an un-palm-rolled in-water return in order to set up the plant for the next stroke. This is essentially an Indian stroke with the palm roll at the end of the in-water return instead of at the beginning of the in-water return. I don't know if this stroke has a universal name. Some call it the Florida stroke, while others call something else (a variation of the Canadian stroke) the Florida stroke.

At any rate Glenn you are now responsible for the loss of some of my dishware bought with green stamps! And I hurt.. I think I got it but it feels awkward. And I have to lean the paddle against the wall while I get a broom and sweep pan.

I certainly understand the need for less arcane language. I remember as a beginning FreeStyle student back in the dark ages that I had no bleeping idea what all this language was that was thrown at me. Now I understand it is merely technical jargon that is a shortcut; usually for a series of moves that are best described visually. Ergo the rub. I can paddle.I have no idea how to convey via video.
 

Glenn MacGrady

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Yes you did! Even I a purveyor of canoe jargon am confused about this



At any rate Glenn you are now responsible for the loss of some of my dishware bought with green stamps! And I hurt.. I think I got it but it feels awkward. And I have to lean the paddle against the wall while I get a broom and sweep pan.

Given that it's entirely possible I confused myself, I had to practice this mystery stroke with one of the two Mitchell whitewater paddles I have here in my bedroom.

So I:

- Take a forward stroke with a strong thumb down J correction.

- The power face is now facing outward, away from the canoe.

- I slice the outward-facing paddle forward on an in-water return with no palm roll. This is awkward, especially doing it in the air standing up in my bedroom.

- You reach the the forward catch point and then do a palm roll, so that the former back face can be the power face for the next forward stroke.

I invented this stroke on my own long ago while experimenting with palm rolling. I also recall Tracy Hunt, a freestyle and river canoeing instructor, saying that Mark Molina had showed him this stroke.

I just knocked over my laptop while practicing this Florida/nameless stroke in my bedroom, but I didn't buy it with green stamps. I haven't seen those since 1955. Maybe in the Maine boonies.
 
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I am more than willing to ask Tracy ..my bow paddler in tandem Freestyle. CEW was right ..there are about 17 canoeists left in the world.

My troubles are here. This is where some of the pottery suffered. More so than palm rolling at the onset of the recovery

- I slice the outward-facing paddle forward on an in-water return with no palm roll. This is awkward, especially doing it in the air standing up in my bedroom.

Big Bird what sayeth thou?
 
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A palm roll can be used for a few things:...

- At the end of an un-palm-rolled in-water return in order to set up the plant for the next stroke. This is essentially an Indian stroke with the palm roll at the end of the in-water return instead of at the beginning of the in-water return. I don't know if this stroke has a universal name. Some call it the Florida stroke, while others call something else (a variation of the Canadian stroke) the Florida stroke.
There are "pure" strokes, the named ones that people learn. Then there are those that just naturally form as variations when the paddle and the water tell you something else will work at the moment. The best part is that you make the transitions smoothly and don't even have to think about it. I often use the Canadian, but find myself using all manner of varying combinations of all sorts of the named strokes linked together, including the one Glenn just described with the Indian/Canadian combination. It just happens without thought, and it's what I love about canoeing. An old instructor friend once told me to "get my head in the waer", and this is what he meant.
 
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The palm roll is also used in some freestyle combination strokes, such as a reverse Christie into a high brace into a duffek. It can also be used in inner and outer gimbals.
 
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Big Bird what sayeth thou?

You guys lost me!

I find the 'Indian Stroke' very difficult partly due to the palm roll, but most of it is the actual initiation of the next stroke.

I've been doing my own no name stroke in the solo and I kind of like it... maybe it is a Canadian but it looks a little different than a 'true' Canadian stroke that I've seen demonstrated.

I basically do the Florida stroke as Glenn has described it but I pull the paddle out of the water after I return fully forward with an underwater recovery and face it back perpendicular (out of the water), with no palm roll to initiate the next stroke. I find I'm able to go dead straight with very little pry at the end and no draw at the beginning.

I've been working on a 'C' stroke and I'm able to do this and lose less speed than my wanna-be Canadian stroke... it isn't as comfortable or as easy to control for me at the moment though.
 
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There are several parts to the Canadian/Indian stroke, and it might help to consider them separately.

During the forward stroke phase, you can do a normal "J" stroke or you can do what's called a pitch stroke. This involves turning the paddle a bit beyond square so it exerts a little pushaway force during the stroke in addition to forward propulsion. It's like starting the "J" stroke early, and it has the same effect, to move the stern away from the paddle.

During the recovery phase, the blade stays in the water and is sliced forward with just a little bit of a drawing action. This is done by opening the blade slightly as it's moved forward through the water. Its effect on the boat is the same as the "J", both of which counteract the natural deflection of the forward stroke.

The palm roll occurs in the brief transition between these two phases, at the end of the forward-stroke phase and before the recovery phase. With the paddle in the final "J" position, you grip the shaft a little more firmly, open your grip hand a bit and cock the wrist (turn the thumb toward you a bit), at the same time as using your shaft hand to rotate the paddle just a little more. (The hands turn in opposite directions.) Keep the paddle grip against your palm during this movement. When the grip seats itself again in the palm, loosen your shaft hand and re-grip the paddle with your grip-hand thumb facing backwards toward the stern. Then slice the paddle forward for the in-water recovery.

I hope this helps!
 
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L'Oiseau the initiation of the next stroke is easier with a narrow paddle. Are you using a wide blade? Palm roll to next stroke works just fine with a wide blade but it tends to wander easier during the learning process.
 
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It also helps to be comfortable with the forward slicing action. Good idea to practice that.
 
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Yes, I use a wide blade. I believe it would be easier with a more traditional paddle.

What happens is I tend to draw the boat on-side too much while trying to initiate the stroke. I have no issue with underwater recovery but for the first time I am really starting to take notice to different paddle shapes and how they work underwater at different rates and angles while being sliced.

The sound tells a lot too I am finding out.
 
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L'Oiseau the initiation of the next stroke is easier with a narrow paddle. Are you using a wide blade? Palm roll to next stroke works just fine with a wide blade but it tends to wander easier during the learning process.
Yes, a narrow paddle with a thin feather edge is what you need to best accomplish the Canadian. You need the paddle to silently slice through the water, and only a thin edge can do that well.

Keep in mind that the power face remains the power face throughout the Canadian. So during the underwater recovery phase, you angle the forward edge of the blade ever so slightly downward as it slices forward underwater - the power face remains the power face and the paddle will want to dive. When you do this, you have to also provide an upward force to keep the paddle from diving. Note that the water pressure is still against the original power face of the paddle. This upward force by you against the power face is what provides the corrective force to keep you going in the direction you desire. Now with the paddle abeam of your hip, complete the recovery by quickly but gently angling the forward edge of the blade slightly up to flip it out of the water... it will flip out by itself, to complete the recovery and immediately go into the catch for the next stroke.

When instead going to the modified Canadian / Indian stroke, you simply keep the blade in the water as you slice forward. Instead of flipping it out, do a palm roll to change the power face to what was originally the back face of the paddle. The blade remains underwater for the entire process. The "C" and the pitch are simply different variations of how you hold the paddle and angle the blade during the power phase. Once you catch on, the paddle should move smoothly in a continuous motion, there should be no hesitation anywhere, including none where most people would either rudder or kick out the J.
 
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