I picked up a Mohawk Viper 12 the other day. WW boats don't show up too often around here, so I figured it would make a nice beater for my Ozark travels or running some flooded urban Kansas City rivers. Of course now that I have it my mind is wandering to excessive thoughts. I figure it would be a waste to not use it as a mold for a composite boat. I should be asking this over at cboats, but I'm not a member. What kind of layup schedule should I do? The royalex boat weighs 49 lbs I think, haven't put it on a scale yet. It's easy enough to lug around so if I hit that in composite no biggie. Just on instinct I'm thinking kevlar kevlar s-glass s-glass and a dynel football, maybe some partials in the bottom. I'm honestly tired of trimming kevlar so maybe carbon instead. Is that too risky since it will ground out as part of its daily nature? Full layers all the way? Partials? Thoughts? Does anyone know the layup Clipper used to use for the same boat?
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Composite Whitewater Layup Advice
- Thread starter Muskrat
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If you're looking for impact resistance, you might want to look at the numbers for innegra/basalt hybrid fabric. (Novacraft calls it "tuff stuff")
I've never used the stuff, but the promotional materials make it look impressive. (That's what promos are for - he he)
You can find it at Noah's marine, sold by the foot. Their prices make it seem to compare favorably to kevlar, and much cheaper than pure carbon. They also have a carbon/Basalt hybrid, supposed to have better abrasion resistance than pure carbon.
I've never used the stuff, but the promotional materials make it look impressive. (That's what promos are for - he he)
You can find it at Noah's marine, sold by the foot. Their prices make it seem to compare favorably to kevlar, and much cheaper than pure carbon. They also have a carbon/Basalt hybrid, supposed to have better abrasion resistance than pure carbon.
No need to be taken in by the Innegra hype, just take a look at the layup used by Kaz at Millbrook and the Duraflex used by Clipper. I like the idea of a composite viper but would prefer something with softer chines for my bumbling whitewater skills.
In both cases I think they use an S-glass outer. I think carbon would be too brittle
In both cases I think they use an S-glass outer. I think carbon would be too brittle
I've heard Kaz uses S-glass and kevlar, 4 layers, S-S-K-K from the outside in. I don't know if that information is reliable nor do I know the weight of the cloth he's using. I can't imagine 4 layers of 6oz. cloth being thick or strong enough unless the curvature of the highly rockered hull adds a lot more strength that the more typical canoe shapes.
Going by specs his boats are quite light and prices are pretty low so maybe he is using that little of cloth. I'd like to see and handle one.
Alan
Going by specs his boats are quite light and prices are pretty low so maybe he is using that little of cloth. I'd like to see and handle one.
Alan
I would say that two complete blankets of 5 ounce/sq yd aramid on the interior and two complete blankets of 6 ounce/sq yd S fiberglass on the exterior would be the absolute minimum, but I would be inclined to add some partials to the hull bottom as well. A classic source of info is Charlie Walbridge's "Boatbuilder's Manual". This was mostly directed towards construction of decked boats, kayaks and C1s. For heavy use 5 layer hulls and 4 layer decks were recommended. For very lightweight racers 3 layer hulls and 2 layer decks might be used. The strongest 4 layer layup for general use was SS/KK where S represented S 'glass and K represented Kevlar. The roughly cylindrical structure of kayaks and C1s does offer some structural strength advantage over open boats, however.
I have a Clipper Duraflex Viper 12. The Duraflex layup utilizes S glass and Kevlar and is very strong. Multiple partials are used. Marlin Bayes, owner of Clipper, told me that as many as 8 layers of fabric are used. My Duraflex Viper is as heavy as the Royalex version, maybe even a pound or two heavier, but much stiffer.
Personally, I would avoid carbon fiber for a whitewater river runner. It is very popular for racing boats because of its high strength to weight ratio and its stiffness. It has a high Young's modulus meaning it is not very elastic and when carbon fails, it tends to do so catastrophically. Furthermore, when it fractures it sometimes leaves sharp edges and shards.
If you choose to try hybrid Innegra fabric you will need to vacuum bag as I am told it will float on the resin.
I have seen a whole bunch of Millbrook boats and paddled a few. They are pretty light. They seem to hold up pretty well but I don't think they would have near the durability of the Clipper Duraflex layup.
I have a Clipper Duraflex Viper 12. The Duraflex layup utilizes S glass and Kevlar and is very strong. Multiple partials are used. Marlin Bayes, owner of Clipper, told me that as many as 8 layers of fabric are used. My Duraflex Viper is as heavy as the Royalex version, maybe even a pound or two heavier, but much stiffer.
Personally, I would avoid carbon fiber for a whitewater river runner. It is very popular for racing boats because of its high strength to weight ratio and its stiffness. It has a high Young's modulus meaning it is not very elastic and when carbon fails, it tends to do so catastrophically. Furthermore, when it fractures it sometimes leaves sharp edges and shards.
If you choose to try hybrid Innegra fabric you will need to vacuum bag as I am told it will float on the resin.
I have seen a whole bunch of Millbrook boats and paddled a few. They are pretty light. They seem to hold up pretty well but I don't think they would have near the durability of the Clipper Duraflex layup.
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I would talk to Marlin or John Kaz these guys are pretty good at helping out... Bob Hellman is also a great guy to take to!!
Assuming Bob Hellman is of Hellman canoes. They make the otter right?
I was planning on going with Walbridge's reccomendations straight from the book, but wasn't sure if there was a new school of thought since that book is getting very old.
Bothwell, I'm a little concerned with the Viper chines too, but it's the boat I was able to get. I'll put it through its paces before I get started on a copy to make sure that's what I want, but the flat bottom might be a plus for the shallow water I'm usually on.
Also, does anyone know who designed the Viper? I'd like to offer them the royalties due if I make a copy.
I might give sweet composites a ring too, I know they worked with Charlie Walbridge for a long time and they've been helpful in the past dissecting some of the more obscure points in Charlie's book.
I haven't used any dynel in the past. I think as much shallow water as this boat will see that I might want to go with a layer. What if any structure would that lend to the layup, or is it too flexy to add anything but abrasion resistance.
I was planning on going with Walbridge's reccomendations straight from the book, but wasn't sure if there was a new school of thought since that book is getting very old.
Bothwell, I'm a little concerned with the Viper chines too, but it's the boat I was able to get. I'll put it through its paces before I get started on a copy to make sure that's what I want, but the flat bottom might be a plus for the shallow water I'm usually on.
Also, does anyone know who designed the Viper? I'd like to offer them the royalties due if I make a copy.
I might give sweet composites a ring too, I know they worked with Charlie Walbridge for a long time and they've been helpful in the past dissecting some of the more obscure points in Charlie's book.
I haven't used any dynel in the past. I think as much shallow water as this boat will see that I might want to go with a layer. What if any structure would that lend to the layup, or is it too flexy to add anything but abrasion resistance.
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The Viper designs are pretty much cut down versions of Frankie Hubbard's "Edge" and Frankie is long departed, having died in 2003 at the young age of 41. The Edge, the Vipers, and the much loved Ocoee are all hard chine boats. The Viper 12 happened to be the first hard-chined whitewater canoe I owned and yes, there was definitely a learning curve.
With a hard-chined canoe you may find yourself tripping over the "edge" a few times, or more than a few times. This can easily happen if you get sideways to the current and your downstream chine hits what Wayne Dickert used to call an "unfer" or "unforseen rock". This can happen quite quickly if you are trying to enter an eddy and do not notice a barely underwater "guard rock" for example. A soft-chined boat is much more likely to slide over the rock without upsetting.
You can also trip over the edge crossing eddy lines if you don't have your heel right, or have insufficient heel. But the chines can be used something like keels by weighting a knee and allow very crisp lines on ferries, and snappy eddy turns. If you are really good you can execute a very dynamic eddy turn by dropping your downstream knee and snapping in with an offside heel, like a freestyler's post. The flatter bottom also allows for much easier flat spins, and you can control wave surfs much more easily with edge control.
In my experience, most whitewater boaters who paddle hard chine designs for a while seldom go back to soft-chine boats. The exceptions would be the hard core creekers who like to rock spin, splat, and boof off of everything. The softer chines tend to slide off rocks in a much more friendly fashion with less wear at the chines.
If you plan to use Dynel I would suggest using it externally under the pedestal or seat area and along both chines. Anything that adds thickness to the hull will add stiffness. Dynel is not as strong as S 'glass but it is pretty strong and it does hold up well to abrasion.
With a hard-chined canoe you may find yourself tripping over the "edge" a few times, or more than a few times. This can easily happen if you get sideways to the current and your downstream chine hits what Wayne Dickert used to call an "unfer" or "unforseen rock". This can happen quite quickly if you are trying to enter an eddy and do not notice a barely underwater "guard rock" for example. A soft-chined boat is much more likely to slide over the rock without upsetting.
You can also trip over the edge crossing eddy lines if you don't have your heel right, or have insufficient heel. But the chines can be used something like keels by weighting a knee and allow very crisp lines on ferries, and snappy eddy turns. If you are really good you can execute a very dynamic eddy turn by dropping your downstream knee and snapping in with an offside heel, like a freestyler's post. The flatter bottom also allows for much easier flat spins, and you can control wave surfs much more easily with edge control.
In my experience, most whitewater boaters who paddle hard chine designs for a while seldom go back to soft-chine boats. The exceptions would be the hard core creekers who like to rock spin, splat, and boof off of everything. The softer chines tend to slide off rocks in a much more friendly fashion with less wear at the chines.
If you plan to use Dynel I would suggest using it externally under the pedestal or seat area and along both chines. Anything that adds thickness to the hull will add stiffness. Dynel is not as strong as S 'glass but it is pretty strong and it does hold up well to abrasion.
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Thanks pblanc, much of what you just said is gibberish to me as I haven't ever done any serious whitewater. The rocks don't get that big around here, main obstacle is an almost unlimited number of downed sycamores or cedars depending on the river.
I think your dynel advice is spot on with some for the stems too. Looking at the underside and assuming the canoe has run similar rivers as I plan those are the major wear areas.
I think your dynel advice is spot on with some for the stems too. Looking at the underside and assuming the canoe has run similar rivers as I plan those are the major wear areas.
Can't hurt to put some Dynel on the stems. But with highly rockered boats like the Viper, the main area of wear apart from the sharp chines is often right under the pedestal. The boat draws the most water there and the paddler's weight of course, accelerates the wear when the hull scrapes on shallow gravel bottoms.
If you paddle off of rock ledges, the stern stem is actually more likely to sustain abuse than the front, when the rear of the hull smacks on the edge of the ledge after most of the boat has dropped over.
If you paddle off of rock ledges, the stern stem is actually more likely to sustain abuse than the front, when the rear of the hull smacks on the edge of the ledge after most of the boat has dropped over.
While we're at it, I'm going to look at a Dagger Caper for my former bowman (as I have no need for him anymore) tomorrow. Any thoughts on the Caper? I know it's a 14' oldie with 5" of rocker but not much else. We will use these as down river trippers with gear (coolers included (not soft yetis)) moreso than solely airbagged WW canoes.
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Well, as it happens, I also own a Dagger Caper. I have mostly paddled it as a tandem, but I have used it as a solo river tripping boat and it is excellent for that purpose. The Caper was actually the first whitewater canoe Dagger made and it was designed as a solo. Later, Dagger and Caper owners adapted it for use as a tandem. When the Caper came out in the late 1980s there were far fewer dedicated solo whitewater boats, and its major competition, the Blue Hole Sunburst II and the Whitesell Piranha, were also 14+ feet.
For a whitewater canoe the Caper is fairly fast. It won't be as fast as a flat water tripper but it can move along respectfully. It has soft chines. It has plenty of room for gear and sufficient depth to be quite dry.
For a whitewater canoe the Caper is fairly fast. It won't be as fast as a flat water tripper but it can move along respectfully. It has soft chines. It has plenty of room for gear and sufficient depth to be quite dry.
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