Burning plastic

[Art D]

I’m one of those who generally enjoys watching Kevin Callan tripping videos. I watched one video this past fall when he said he knows that burning plastic is bad for his health and the environment but he was going to do it anyway because it had wrapped meat and he was too tired to make it bear proof. Personally, I was pretty discouraged to hear him say that in a tripping video, essentially giving every viewer permission to do the same.

Why does this matter? Burning plastic in a campfire releases a cocktail of hazardous toxins, including carcinogens like benzene, styrene, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, along with highly poisonous dioxins, heavy metals (lead, mercury), and gases such as hydrogen cyanide, and nitrogen oxides. It can cause respiratory damage and increase cancer risks and long-term environmental harm through airborne particulates and contaminated ash.

I ran into my own plastic burning situation this past spring while on the St. John River in Maine. After they had eaten dinner, a group that arrived late at a campsite approached our campfire and asked if they could burn their trash. What kind of trash, I asked. Mostly plastic, they said. I said no, burning plastic isn’t acceptable and reminded them of the carry in, carry out ethic. They didn’t like that (I’ll admit I was probably disagreeable at this point) and were quite upset. We agreed to disagree and eventually found common ground on other topics and ended up having good conversation. However, I am pretty confident that they burned their plastic at their next campsite.

I know that some people would argue that “the little bit of plastic I burn in my campfire won’t make a difference.” Or, as one Maine Guide I know is fond of saying, “The solution to pollution is dilution.” And what about trash burning plants? (They burn at much higher temperatures than typical campfires and have scrubbers on their stacks). I just have a hard time accepting these arguments as a substitute to personal responsibility for our own actions and activities. Even when we’re tired.

Anyway, I’m interested in hearing what others think. I’m not sure I’ll change my behaviors or what goes into my campfires, but I’m always open to how other people approach things.

 

[Caledonia]

Agree 100%.

 

[tketcham]

I used to have the attitude that a little bit of plastic burned in a campfire was a proverbial drop in the ocean but not anymore. Sure, if I'm the only one burning a little garbage the harm is minimal, but millions of people go camping every year so the effect isn't small. Now I pack out everything that cannot be burned cleanly or just pack all of it out regardless. It's changed what I bring and how I package it for a trip, especially in bear country. Plan accordingly or do without.

I'm a bit hypocritical, though, considering the air pollution I create when driving to my destination.

 

[Jmharrick]

I think it’s hard to come to an immediate conclusion on the best way to handle disposable plastics like the kind found in food wrappers and packaging.

If you burn a small plastic wrapper in your campfire, there is an immediate hazard from the toxins released when the plastic breaks down. Some also say the ash left behind is toxic and needs disposed of.

Packing the wrappers out and disposing of them in the trash likely sends the plastics wrappers to a landfill, where there isn’t much immediate hazard, but over time they will break down into microplastics and eventually get airborne or into a water supply that way.

I’m not sure what the best option is. If I eat a candy bar and I’m sitting by the fire, I’ll likely toss the wrapper in, but I’m not going to throw a pound of plastic garbage in a fire to dispose of it.

The thing I hate most about people burning trash is when they don’t have a large enough/hot enough fire to fully break it down, and I find all their remnant trash in a fire pit when I arrive on site.

 

[eckilson]

Don't burn plastic. It is usually easy to rinse and carry out. I'll burn paper and food waste.

I did a trip a couple of years ago with a lady who didn't want us to burning anything. We agreed on the condition that she carried the trash bags. It added up. An animal got in them one night and made a mess, but she got it all out. More bother than it is worth in my opinion.

 

[memaquay]

I will add a perspective about perspective. Over the last few decades, I have struggled to keep canoe routes from being destroyed in my neck of the woods. If anyone is familiar with modern logging techniques, you will know that a processor, run by an experienced operator, can completely denude several acres of forest each day. While doing this, they will also have several gallons of chain oil sprayed about the bush, hydraulic fluids spurted about when hoses break, multiple gas and diesel spills, which no one talks about, and the associated trash (empty fuel containers, operator generated trash) strewn about the forest.

Meanwhile, the negotiated buffers of tree line between the canoe routes and the cuts (anywhere from 30 meters to 200 meters) are routinely violated by operators, with little to no punishment. Throw into this mix a couple of guys on the downside of life trying to keep the routes open with chainsaws, where small buffers between cuts and routes allow trees to blowdown a an unprecedented rate.

Throw into this mix also an urgent rush by provincial and federal governments to activate the Ring of Fire mining area, the rush being primarily caused by unstable world trade decisions. The mining companies bring about whole scale destruction. Unlike the forest companies, they don't even have to pretend to work with user groups.

Now ask me if I care if a canoe tripper burns a little bit of plastic in their fire. I think you can guess my response. It's all about perspective.

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I avoid it. But I don't get wrapped around the axle over a wrapper being burned from time to time. I'm not sure putting it in a landfill is better in the long run, but I'll admit that it's a very small part of that too. Like Mem, I feel like there's a host of bigger problems to dwell on.

 

[Odyssey]

I'd posit the pollution thing is as much to do with scale as anything else. Besides, we are all part of the pollution problem.
As consumers we assume the responsibility, like it or not, of the product/byproducts and their eventual end of life decisions. Not the perfect industrial business model but it's what we've got for now. And although the industrial complex are not the evil monsters, their prime purpose is profit and payoffs to their shareholders. We as consumers must wear the cloak of conscience, if we choose to. We are part and parcel of the pollution problem, but can be part of some solutions. Perhaps only on an infinitesimally small scale, but...it all adds up.
I used to burn trash but decided to take ownership for my small part. Besides, I hate the mess and clutter of excessive stuff on trips and their very short single purpose free ride in packs and barrel. I follow the 3 Rs diligently; reduce, reuse, recycle. As part of that, where needed, I repackage the already minimal packaged food at home, usually into those petrochemical sin bags (lol) called Ziplocs. Rinsed and reused.
I'm trying not to wear the Eco hubris badge, but I do think about my over-sized human footprint on this planet. Trying to make it smaller.
Thinking scale. And choosing my battles, which it seems to me is better than avoiding them all altogether.
No judgement, just my own life-trip.
re: the op. Without a doubt I would've said no. I don't want to burn sh!t in my fire. But I will give you a trash bag to pack it out.

 

[Erica]

I only have a fire when it is needed for warmth or to dry clothes on ongoing wet days. I will put small amounts of paper trash in it, as long as it is burning well. Everything else I carry out. I will also pick up the odd bit of paper, cups, cans, etc left by others. I didn't see any on this last trip.

But I don't bring fresh food, much less fresh meat into the wilderness.

And this last trip taught me that sometimes one is too tired to do anything correctly and safety rules were violated as a result. I hated it but could do nothing about it.

This is just what I do. I agree one should not burn plastic in the wilderness for the same reason we practice minimal footprint camping. It's part of the process.

 

[BWCA66]

In MN (the Boundary Waters) it is illegal to burn any garbage. I do my best to repack what I can before a trip to minimize what garbage I need to pack out. I will admit to burning paper if there's no ink on it and coffee grounds and some food scraps although my pup usually makes sure there's no of those.

 

[Art D]

I will add a perspective about perspective. Over the last few decades, I have struggled to keep canoe routes from being destroyed in my neck of the woods. If anyone is familiar with modern logging techniques, you will know that a processor, run by an experienced operator, can completely denude several acres of forest each day. While doing this, they will also have several gallons of chain oil sprayed about the bush, hydraulic fluids spurted about when hoses break, multiple gas and diesel spills, which no one talks about, and the associated trash (empty fuel containers, operator generated trash) strewn about the forest.

Meanwhile, the negotiated buffers of tree line between the canoe routes and the cuts (anywhere from 30 meters to 200 meters) are routinely violated by operators, with little to no punishment. Throw into this mix a couple of guys on the downside of life trying to keep the routes open with chainsaws, where small buffers between cuts and routes allow trees to blowdown a an unprecedented rate.

Throw into this mix also an urgent rush by provincial and federal governments to activate the Ring of Fire mining area, the rush being primarily caused by unstable world trade decisions. The mining companies bring about whole scale destruction. Unlike the forest companies, they don't even have to pretend to work with user groups.

Now ask me if I care if a canoe tripper burns a little bit of plastic in their fire. I think you can guess my response. It's all about perspective.

Memaquay, thanks for everything you do. We each do our part, big and small. Each effort is necessary and makes difference.

 

[memaquay]

Thanks, that's a very gracious answer to an old man rant, lol. Unfortunately I sometimes boil over, usually when someone is lecturing me about plastic straws when the whole dang sh1t house is burning down around us. Anyway, I'm not a leave no trace practitioner, it's impossible to do if you want to keep canoe routes viable in the Boreal. Chainsaws, gas, oil, we are more like guys from the 1940's than the eco conscious trippers of today. I don't go out of my way to pollute, but I will burn anything that might stink, of course after everyone is done cooking, and in a very hot fire. I've had some irate folks tell me not to burn plastic, I just look at them and tell them Captain Planet doesn't live here, and carry on.

 

[Odyssey]

"I've had some irate folks tell me not to burn plastic". Oh Mem, I would've paid extra to sit at that fire. ha ha

 

[jdeerfoot]

On this issue I think back to the many years of Wabakimi Project trips I participated in. Uncle Phil would not allow us to burn any trash contending that there would be scents while burning it which could attract bears. I had wanted to rinse out Mountain House pouches concerned these would attract bears. He wouldn’t allow that either, so the pouches were resealed and placed in the garage bag which hung under the tarp with the food barrels. I don’t think I ever heard of any bear problems on these trips. No one ever burned plastic on these trips either but he would allow small amounts of cardboard packaging to be used as fire starter as needed. Standards of all types loosened up after Phil was no longer physically able to travel in the bush, so paper, cardboard, etc were often burned.

 

[Gamma1214]

Even at home, I try to generate as little trash as possible. On trips, about the only plastic that goes are zip-lock bags. I often pick up trash from in fire pits & around campsites and how those pieces get treated varies. If there is nasty residue in a plastic bottle, for example, I may toss it in the fire to dry / clean it and fish it out the next morning.

I think the "solution to pollution is delution" argument may be very valid though as I find far more garbage in front country sites than in my 2 trips in Memaquay country.

PS: IMO you've earned the occasional rant Mem. It's beautiful country and worth preserving... I'm very sorry to hear that the fight isn't going well in the Ring of Fire.

 

[VA paddler]

I’m with Memaquay. Perspective is important. For a couple week trip to Quebec, what’s my environmental footprint? Just the 100 gallons of gas that it takes to get me there and back… then there’s the train, the coffee that’s coming from Indonesia, all the gear that’s made in Asia or Europe… I can tell you we left pounds and pounds of microplastics in the Hudson Bay when we dragged our asses down the low water trip on the Partridge - our boat bottoms were Swiss cheese. And even in the farthest flung areas, we’ve encountered far more trash than you would imagine. Detritus of loggers, hunters, fisherman, snowmobilers, etc. And it’s recent, too. Not the cast offs of last-century adventurers. And despite that, while we don’t have the goodheartedness to clean up 5 or 6 cases of empties leftover from someone else’s trip, we are fairly fastidious ourselves and pack out most trash we generate. I, to the sometime consternation of companions, will burn plastic meat wrappings & other critter attractors. We don’t pack glass. Cans crush and pack out. Butts and paper products and little wrappers all burn. I would rather burn it & have it mostly disappear from the landscape, than see it scattered downstream when I flip in a rapid and the trash bag tears open and all that plastic floats away.

 

[recped]

I'm pretty adverse to burning plastics, also scrunched up aluminum foil and beer cans. I've been on trips with others who do this from time to time but that is at least better than coming to a campsite littered with trash which would have been only marginally better if well burned.

While I am definitely not a LNT adherent I do try to limit my smelly garbage burning.

To clarify what I posted on another thread.....

I am not sure how I will dispose of the carcass, burning it would probably be best but I’m not inclined to have a fire. Bury it? I do not see the point, unless it was very deep some critter would probably dig it up. Toss it in the lake, not generally a popular solution although there are plenty of dead creatures in the lake. Perhaps just leave it on the beach and let the gulls (plenty of them) take care of them (do gulls eat chicken?). I’ll think of something.

I did not reveal what the "something" was that I came up with. In the end the Costco chicken bag came home with me, was cleaned and put in the recycle bin. The carcass also came home in the bag and it went in the organic waste bin for recycling!

To be honest, this only happened because on the crater trip I never had a fire. Normally on a solo trip I'll have a few campfires (one a week?) and if I happen to land at a camp with giant piles of good firewood (plus no bugs and pleasant weather) I might stay up most of the night tending it. On those occasions I might burn a bit of stinky plastic and a few cigarette butts.

Normally I come home with used meal in a bag pouches (rinsed usually but not always), the odd tin can (I don't drink beer or soda), Pringles tubes, granola bar wrappers AND cigarette butts, yes, easily burned but I don't, they go from my "portable ash tray" and then into a zip lock freezer bag.

Now back to the thread topic. On most of my trips I see very little if any trash, I do see much more on my way there and back, maybe we need to put a bit of money into an updated version of this:

Or this:

To complain about the burning a few pieces of plastic when you are burning hundreds of litres of gasoline to get to and from your pristine wilderness canoe trip seems to me to be rather conflicting. I believe this is an example of cognitive dissonance (something I'm probably afflicted with from time to time).

 

[eckilson]

Now ask me if I care if a canoe tripper burns a little bit of plastic in their fire. I think you can guess my response. It's all about perspective.

Reading these last couple of posts got me thinking about an issue we had last year regarding an outbreak of invasive Hydrilla at the headwaters at one of RI’s prettiest rivers – the Pawcatuck. If you know anything about Hydrilla, it is nasty stuff - spreads quickly and is nearly impossible to control. There is a huge outbreak on the Connecticut River.

The local watershed association here in RI was advocating that trips down the river be eliminated to prevent the spread. That would have closed the river to one of RI’s most popular spring time trips. Our local club looked for guidance from the DEM and got the following response:

While it is possible that paddle sports activities have the potential to move invasive around participants in your sport are possible the most well informed of all the users groups. To put it simply one motorboat zipping through a Hydrilla bed making thousands of potential plants could not be compared to all the canoeists and kayakers in RI. Education of the users is the only way we are going to stop the spread. Thanks for your efforts.

We later learned that Hydrilla doesn’t really emerge until early-mid summer, so there was very little risk of spread during spring time trips.

Kind of the same thing here. As a group, we are a minuscule part of the problem and a net positive for environmental protection considering everything else that we do, small campfires notwithstanding.

 

[scoutergriz]

I'm a little on the fence over this and other related topics- while I really don't like burning plastics, at the same time I don't like the possibility of scents from a bag of garbage attracting wildlife, bits of plastic blowing under a bush or across a lake, or finding a stash of someone else's trash hidden in the woods. Paper, cardboard, or other burnables do generally get burnt in a hot fire, as well as foods and, yes, heavily contaminated plastics- it's a matter of safety and LNT to sometimes burn it rather than create just one more hazard, BUT everything we do has a cost, even when we are absolutely diligent in our efforts. One recent case was of a nice little unmarked trout stream with a healthy brook trout population in Temagami- very few people even knew it existed and all were very conscious of it's fragility, so took extreme steps to protect it; not lighting any fires, using existing animal trails, and removing all trace of our use. Unfortunately our caution bit us in the butt 2 years ago- the area was clear-cut by loggers and the riverbed destroyed by heavy equipment crossing it daily, this happened due to the MNRF finding no obvious signs of human activity.
If we had cut a path in a direct line to the stream, built a few small firepits, and left a little bit of litter, that area would have been somewhat protected as an area in present use, instead our cautions directly contributed to it's destruction.
That changed my outlook somewhat from solid and uncompromising LNT to a more practical view- we are part of that environment, and no different than the bear that leaves a stripped carcass, or the deer herd that leaves a clear, well worn trail from it's bedding area to it's favourite browse, we leave signs of our passage, BUT,unlike them some of our signs are not natural- THOSE should be eliminated as much as possible, but I will no longer worry about evidence of an old firepit (unless it's in a dangerous location), or making a trail across an old portage, or even burning something that can create a hazard if left in it's original state. My belief is that, as part of the environment, we CAN leave signs of our passing but they have to be equally part of that environment, so like everything else we do , burning plastics is a choice- is it better, safer, and more natural to burn it or is it better to pack every piece out religiously- there really is no cut and dried answer; it depends on conditions, risks, and level of harm all of which are subjective and open to interpretation.