Boat buying advice conundrum

[Guest]

A Canoe Tripping friend emailed me this today.

I saw the spawn of the Sundolphin kayaks and sit on tops outside at the local Walmart

Oddly enough, same here. I was at a WalMart early this morning ISO a cheap replacement white board for scribing the grocery list in the kitchen.

I passed by a tall wire rack, the same rack usually filed with cheap vinyl balls, to the everlasting allure of toddlers being pushed in shopping carts. That rack held selection of crap plastic rec kayaks, stacked vertically on end.

The least expensive shortie plastic rec kayak was priced $198. That gave me pause, for reasons you might not think.

A 20 something niece and boyfriend had asked my advice about buying kayaks. For calm water day trips on, I advised hopefully, calm and sheltered waters. I explained, probably a boring length, about length to waterline ratios and bulkheads and yadda yadda.

Even for that use I told them not to bother with $200 big box crap, and to look for a used 14ish footer from a reputable manufacturer for sale on Craigslist or etc. No problem, just send me the links and I will tell you if it is a decent boat/decent deal.

That was a couple years ago. They never sent me a used kayak question. They never did buy kayaks.

400 bucks would have put them both out on the water. If they enjoyed the experience those BigBox boats would be history by now, and they would be paddling something better.

Should I regret offering that advice?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Or in a pine box. You did the best you could.
Unsolicited advice is tricky
While my love of paddling was launched by a rec kayak back in 1989 it was $300. I did have some exposure to real kayak people who mentored me when and where to use that little thing.. Otherwise I could well have used it in conditions I had no idea were dangerous. It had one bulkhead. I wonder if the Wal Mart beauties had any flotation

 

[memaquay]

I bought my stepson a crappy tire pelican kayak, around four hundred canadian. It is what it is, he likes it, lots of other people use it in summer. Personally, I think it's a hunk of dog turd.

 

[pblanc]

I think inexpensive recreational kayaks might suit some people fine. It really depends what they want to use them for. If they only intend to paddle on protected inland lakes and ponds or easy streams and don't want to invest a great deal of money up front, I would not advise them against buying such a boat, but I would point out their limitations.

And some people do better in them than one might expect. Last time I was out paddling on the Wabash River with a group there was a fellow paddling a Sundolphin kayak who was way out in front. I was paddling my Wenonah Advantage and viewed this as something of a challenge. Yes, I did catch up with him but it took some time and effort to do so. We paddled together the rest of the way to the take-out.

There is a young fellow who has shown up at our last couple of Ozark Rendezvous paddling a Pelican rec kayak. I last saw him on the upper Buffalo River last spring which was running Class I-II. My first thought was "look our for this guy". As it turns out, he did just fine and had a great time.

 

[Dagger]

Ran into a similar situation when a friend asked me for kayak buying advice. In his case, $ weren't so tight that a bottom dollar CL bargain or a big box store plastic tub was the only option.
My first instinct was, of course, to talk him into a canoe...for obvious reasons, I don't have to mention here...but, after considering all he had told me, I felt a Pelican of SunDolphin were a reasonable choice. It was the intended use that persuaded me to even mention cheaply made boats. He wanted it for the occasional family outing where young and old would use it for an hour here and there. A kayak day-trip, he stated, would consist of loading some supplies in (or on top of) the boat, paddling no more than 30 minutes to some beach, and hang out there for the day.

 

[Odyssey]

I live in a blended family of kayaks and canoes. Last time I counted there were 4 canoes and something like 6 kayaks.
My son keeps his 15' canoe for fishing with the kids, his wife wanting no part in paddling. That's okay. I tell her there'll be no judgement from me if she prefers an inner tube for water play. I suggest to him that maybe he could upsize to a 3 person canoe for family fun, but we'll see what happens there. His kids are growing up fast. In no time they'll be empty nesters. Maybe the smaller tandem canoe is the bungalow of the water craft world.
A daughter and hubby each have touring yaks. They're nice to paddle, and I have enjoyed their stability and speed in cold rough waters. They're happy with them, so that's good enough for me. The word canoe hasn't so much as passed my lips when discussing paddling with them. I can't guarantee how long that will last. I'd like to see them rent a big canoe for a fun family base camping trip. As tight lipped as I have been, that will probably slip out soon.
My brother south of the 49th had one of each last time we talked paddling. His love lies with canoeing, but a yak suits him most days he tells me. I won't debate this. He knows what he wants/needs. The yak with single bulkhead is good for his lazy afternoon lilydipping. Perfect.
Another brother has a canoe strictly for playing/exploring just offshore from the same campground he and family visit every year in Algonquin. They are stubborn creatures of routine and habit. Not much voyageur stuff happening there, and that suits their regimented life, so I see no point in stirring up their waters. They chose a canoe so there'd be room for daytripping gear etc. Okay, that seems to work just fine. I have hinted at the small adventure possibilities of paddle-in camping, but got shut down for that. They have a slim narrow boundary separating comfort and extreme. I won't try to push that for them.
My younger brother and wife have yaks, having sold their single solitary canoe soon after I paddled it on the LaSalle river in Manitoba. I told them it was a keeper, and I'd return to it again some day. No such luck. They upgraded from their original plastic yak tubs to sleeker craft. I tried one in Temagami one summer and enjoyed it immensely, though that might've been a time and place sort of thing. They also have a tandem kayak. She's facing early arthritic challenges, so kayaking in a gentler mode of paddling suits her well, and so it suits him too. I've soloed my canoe with them a number of times, zipping ahead, lagging behind, and have spied smiles on their faces at all times, so that definitely works for me then. I can forgive them for selling the canoe.
I've parked myself in the bottom of a cheap plastic SOT yak on a semi-sheltered great bay of the Pacific, in the spacious uncomfortable manhole of a plastic yak on a muddy but charming river, on the plastic stadium seat of a fiberglass lunker passing as a canoe too many times to remember and in places I'm trying not to forget, in the surprisingly comfy cockpit of a touring kayak in numerous beautiful locales, and in not enough webbed or otherwise fitted seats of nice enough canoes in a multitude of landscapes. I can't say as I've hated any of them, although the thought "I wish I were in a ..." crossed my mind several times. I will offer my biased opinion to family when they ask for it, or when I think they might profit from it, otherwise I'll let them choose their future paddling plans. I don't think it hurts to discuss these things lightly and without undue arm twisting. They'll get no pressure sales from me, hopefully just balanced opinion. That's what I aim for anyway.
And if someday I liberate the devilishly ensnared from their evil double blade captivity of guilty yakky pursuits then I'd have done some good in this world. Just kidding.

 

[Guest]

Or in a pine box. You did the best you could.
Unsolicited advice is tricky

Part of the conundrum was that the request for advice was solicited.

The niece and boyfriend visiting my home and, knowing that I am the canoe and kayak guy in the clan, asked my advice about buying a couple rec kayaks. We talked about their budget and intentions, looked at some design features or lack thereof and discussed safety and flotation, PFDs and paddles.

My recommendation was that they look on Craigslist and, if they saw a rec kayak that they thought suitable and decently priced, send me the link to review. Watching Craigslist for a month and talking boats back and forth would provide a continuing boat education, and they would eventually find a couple decent rec kayaks, maybe with paddles, for 100 bucks more than a flimsy WalMart or Dicks POS.

That solution had worked for another niece and husband looking for a tandem canoe. They sent me links to canoes for sale for a few weeks, which elicited some back and forth about their purposes, suitable length and width and material weight.

Even so, an ad for 16 Foot Canoe with no make or model, just a photo does help a novice buyer much. After me finally saying No, thats another Pelican dammit. No more Pelicans, Colemans or Advantage 16s they became more canoe knowledgeable about what they were looking and turned up a TuffWeave Wenonah at a good price. When they seemed unsure about pulling the trigger I told them that it would not last long at that price I was going to drive down to Virginia and buy it myself if they did not. They got a fine canoe at a good price and are happy with it.

I never heard back from rec kayak niece or boyfriend, who are among my favorite of inlaws. Searching kayaks on Craigslist, even for links to forward for review, was likely too daunting. The sheer number of kayaks, especially rec kayaks, available used in the area would mystify me as a newbie. They never got boats.

Not even 400 dollars worth of Sun Dolphin Arubas or Pelican Trailblazers, paddles included. Better than nothing?

 

[Odyssey]

Helpful Advice or Brad Bakes A Cake.

My wife, daughter and dog, son, daughter-in-law and their kids in tow, all stood in the front hall pulling on shoes and jackets. Some were going in one direction, others going in another. I sat firmly planted in my chair enjoying the show and tell, the Grandkids teasing each other, Mums and Dads herding them towards the door. "Aren't you coming grandpa?" I told my Grandson no, I had things to do. I murmured with feigned disinterest "Grandpa has a project to do this morning." I am well practised as a parent in telling half truths with meagre information. I can spill short advice as easily as a long drawn out lecture, and can also be tight lipped when necessary. You do what ya gotta do. My Grandson turned 14 today, and it was high time Grandpa baked this kid a cake. My wife was in on this kitchen project, having laid out various items for me to find, butter to soften, a bag of sugar, measuring cups, spatulas...and my mother's cake recipe. The only advice my wife gave me was "Don't forget to grease the cake pan well with softened butter, and dust it with liberally with cocoa powder. That way the finished cake will be flecked with cocoa rather than the usual white flour. Just a little detail." Ah. Good advice. I like details that make a difference.
Mom would bake my favourite cake for my birthday every year, a chocolate pound cake with chocolate icing. I've long since lost interest in chocolate, and cakes in particular, but this recipe whispered to me in a dream the other night. It's almost like she leaned down from above and patted my face with cocoa powdered fingers. I just wish she had explained more in her recipes. It's a running joke in our family how sparse Mom's recipe directions are. Lovely script writing flows across the page, and then leaves you hanging at the end of a short abrupt sentence like the very best mystery novel.
I smiled confidently at my gathered equipment and ingredients "This is gonna be sooo easy." I have baked cakes before. Our daughter likes coconut, so I've done a few of those. But every time in the kitchen is like the first time for me. For some reason I can't gather layers of accumulated experience like I have with other types of hands-on projects. I wrestle with tasks and instead of a neatly ordered workspace I'm accustomed to, I wind up turning the kitchen into a battlefield. Wreckage and ruin covers every counter and tabletop. Well, if it gets results I suppose. I followed my Mom's lovely cursive script on the virgin white page beside me as I sifted the flour, cocoa powder and salt into a bowl. In another bowl I creamed the butter until fluffy. (sorry Mom, I'm using butter rather than your marg). "Add sugar and eggs" I continued, but hmm, it didn't look right? The words that sprang to mind was Icky shloppy. Continuing down to the next line on the page "...one egg at a time & beat well." Oh for crying out loud. Why couldn't she write that all on the same line. Geeze Mom, what I wouldn't give to have you at my side helping me. With advice.
"Sift flour, cocoa powder & salt & add to the creamed mixture." Ah, no problem. But geeze, it's looking a little dry. What's up with this? Checking the next written line "...alternately with milk & vanilla." Oh for Pete's sake. Knowing the full set of rules and advice would've been handy, but never mind. Eventually well beaten and mixed the batter went into the pan.
By now the clean white recipe page was dusted with cocoa and smeared with butter. The family dog looked up at me with deep brown eyes emploring me to let her lick the page clean, but instead I patted her on the head with my floured hand, tucked the page into my favourite cookbook, and started the daunting job of tidying up the battlefield. When I collected the beater whisks and tipped them into the bowl that had been scraped nearly clean of chocolate batter a memory lost in time exploded from a time long ago; Mom used to divide up the two beater whisks and batter bowl between my three brothers and I. Four youthful tongues and only so much chocolate sticky mess, but it always seemed fair. "Alright you kids. You decide. Two get the whisks and the other two get the bowl." I stood at the kitchen sink staring at the whisks and the bowl, not sure what to do. I was all alone while the whole family were out for the afternoon. Should I just toss them into the dishwasher? Maybe give myself a treat for old times sake? Looking at the cake pan sitting waiting for the oven to reach 325 and the empty batter bowl I felt a brush of cocoa on my cheek. Taking her advice I reached for the full cake pan, and scooped a little more batter into the empty bowl and more onto the whisks. Didn't seem like enough leftover chocolate batter to go around all those youthful tongues coming home soon.

The smell of chocolate cake fills the house. The dog is laying on the carpet in front of the sink. She probably thinks she'll catch me before I clean anything else she wants to lick. Ah! The timer just went off on the oven. The knife slid out with a smear of soft batter sticking to it. I put it in for another 10 minutes. Just a guess, but I'll go with that. With no-one here to help me I will just take my chances. If the cake is a little burnt it'll still taste like chocolate, right? Examining the recipe page I see no advice for her chocolate icing. Ah Mom! What? Did you write that on a separate page? In another book!? Well, I could just go out and buy readymade, but this is a scratch cake, and special in every way. Drawing on the past to bless the future. I know the web world will have countless recipes for me, but no. I'll wait for the cake eating team to return. Maybe together we can all put this cake together complete with icing. Sage and sweet advice from all corners will contribute to finishing Grandpa's project.
One more test and 5 more minutes till the cake is ready. That was 5 minutes ago. The family dog on the carpet lifts one lazy eye looking for encouragement from me, as the nervous family cat curled simmering on the table glowers at the dog through half closed eyes. Neither move as I ease the hot cake pan onto a cooling rack. Sun streams in through the open kitchen window as I stand admiring another birthday chocolate pound cake, and as I wipe away the dusting of cocoa from my cheek I wonder how did that get there?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Are you a writer? I'm not even in your house and am remembering childhood!
Waiting.. tap tap for Epilogue: The Icing.

 

[Guest]

Helpful Advice or Brad Bakes A Cake.

Come for the paddling, stay for the stories.

Well done.

 

[Erica]

Your mother sounds like mine. We LOVED licking the bowl and beaters. Thanks for the memories.
Erica

 

[ppine]

Cheap plastic kayaks are for cheap people that do not want to learn how to paddle.

 

[Clint]

Cheap plastic kayaks are for cheap people that do not want to learn how to paddle.

Boy howdy. Pretty bold statement. I would say that it is an easy way to get into paddling. But these people would make up about 50% of the attendance to races that are held through out the year. Then some I see show up to practices to try out different boats. Go on camping trips with other friends. Then end up buying a used quality boat. They use these cheap boats as stepping stones to better boats. In a diminishing sport I'll use whatever works to get new people paddling.

 

[lowangle al]

On a recent trip in Ak. I was driving by a put in on a canoe trail and was surprised to see a half dozen cars parked there. When I got a view of the lake I was even more surprised to see that they were all in pack rafts. The trip they were doing included about 5 or six portages and twenty miles of flat river paddling. My guess is that they were getting used to their rafts for more remote trips. Maybe I'm wrong though and we might soon be sharing the portage trails with rafters.

 

[MrPoling]

I learned to paddle in absolute junk, starting in an inflatable Sears raft. For a while on my 20s the only boat I could keep in my apartment was my creek boat. I had lots of fun paddling around the local lakes anyway.

Several times I've been out in my canoe and marveled at people who've paddled miles in these stubby little wreck boats. I shake my head and feel grateful to have a decent canoe.

I think crappy sit on tops have an advantage over canoes. It is much easier to get yourself out of trouble in a boat that doesn't swamp.

If ask about boats I try to focus on making sure they'll have fun without drowning. "Something that won't fill with water" and "longer is better".

 

[TXRiverRunner]

I bought my stepson a crappy tire pelican kayak, around four hundred canadian. It is what it is, he likes it, lots of other people use it in summer. Personally, I think it's a hunk of dog turd.

This reminds me of a story I was told on the side of a river. There was a Cajun feller from South Louisianna interviewing for a job. The interviewer had some tricky questions for him. He said, we have some math questions, but we want you to answer by drawing a picture.
The first question was, "What is 9 divided by 3?" The Cajun thought for a minute, then he drew a picture of a tree. They asked him, how does that represent your answer? He said in his Cajun accent, "Simple, Nine divided by tree is tree."
The interviewer thought that was clever, so he asked him another question.
"What is 99 divided by 3?" The Cajun looked down at his picture and drew a little smudge on the side of his tree. The interviewer, looking perplexed asked, "What is that supposed to be?" The Cajun said, again in his Cajun accent, "Simple. Ninety-nine divided by tree is dirty-tree."
The interviewer was quite impressed, so he decided to ask him one more question. A real tough one.
"What is 100 divided by 3?" The old boy looked down at his picture. Scratched his head a minute. Then he picked up his pencil and drew a little spot on the paper beside the dirty tree. The interviewer was now bewildered at asked the Cajun, how this could be his answer." The Cajun looked up and told a little story in that thick Cajun accent.
"You see Boudreaux, he took his dog coon hunting. The coon dog ran him a coon right up in that dirty tree. While he waited for Boudreaux to come find him, the doggy, he pooped on the ground right next to the dirty tree. You see one hundred divided by tree, that there be dirty-tree and a turd."