(Another) help me find a new solo canoe

[billconner]

Somehow I learned of and have been talking to Nighthawk Canoes, their Columba model in particular. Can't figure out who sent me e to them. Thanks on any case. By specs and photos surprisingly close to my Tranq but with more rocker and some tumblehome. Even ribs like a Tranq and epoxy.

Talked to Bill Swift. He mentioned their Prospector 14 is their most popular but like many here, sort if pushed me towards the Keewadin 15. Hmmmm....

Pondering waiting fir ice out and doing a Placid-Hornbeck-Hemlock-Nighthawk tour or not. Could mean not getting a canoe till 2022 because of the pandemic boom.

 

[Iskweo]

A Kee 15 is a pretty nice boat.

It may sound counter intuitive but shorter boats do not necessarily mean better solos. Especially if you want to go narrow then length helps quite a lot with both speed and stability. Think kayaks.
Just a thought.

 

[Guest]

"Primary impetus to switch from my SR Tranquility is difficulty turning sharply going upstream and seeming more fragile than laminates with innegra/basalt. Otherwise the Tranq is perfect for me - high initial stability, lightweight, and wide gunwales for my big portage packs. So a Tranq with more rocker and innegra."

Bill, now I’m confused. If I’m reading the specs correctly, compared to your Tranquility the Nighthawk Columba is:
7” longer, so more hull to turn
3” narrower, 25” wide at the gunwales, so less big portage pack stuff-able
Has less rocker, 0.75” compared to 1”
Is slightly less deep
Seems available in kevlar or carbon, I did not see an innegra/basalt/IXP option. It would, by rough length-to-waterline ratio, be faster, but that was not critical to your interests.

If you are set on basalt/innegra construction there are a bunch of manufacturers using that material.

Maybe H2O Paddlesport’s Solo 15
15’ long
29” gunwale width
Asymmetrical (skegged) rocker 2 ½” bow, 1 ½” stern

http://www.h2ocanoe.com/solo.html

I’ve never even seen a Solo 15, much less paddled one, just throwing it into the mix.

About the “high initial stability” desire, from a purely personal perspective, as a moderately skilled, usually seated and occasionally inattentive paddler, the shape of the hull bottom is of critical importance to me.

I’m 6’ tall (or blown disk age shrunken closer to 5’ 11” nowadays); a broad shouldered, big headed endomorph. With very few exceptions I have never been comfortable in a canoe with an elliptical or round bottomed hull, I am constantly at head-inside-the-gunwales attention, and feel like I’m riding a unicycle.

The narrower the gunwale span with a rounded bottom the more tender I feel. A lower(ed) seat helps, but I do not want to pay that kind of constant balancing attention every second of every paddle stroke. Crossing sharp eddy lines or boils, turning sideways in lake waves, or just glancing off a submerged rock or root has proven a wet experience in rounder bottomed canoes.

If you are accustomed to flat-ish, shallow arch or shallow vee bottoms jumping into a more rounded hull design will take some getting used to. Despite swimming a dozen times from one such canoe I never did get used to it.

FWIW, I don’t know if you have been following the Solo Design Build or Cheat Sheet of Used Solo Canoe threads, but something like a (unicorn used) Mad River Courier, Guide or Freedom Solo would seem to fit the Bill. (I made a pun).

Agree about the Keewaydin, although for my big boy, big load preferences I lust after a Kee16, factory soloized with custom seat and thwart locations, to replicate my beloved Penobscot 16 at half the weight. Canoe Tripping’s Will Derness had Swift build him just that canoe and he seems mighty pleased.

Which adds the wrinkle of having a manufacturer build and outfit an otherwise perfectly dimensioned pocket-tandem to your specs, or DIY converting a used one.

Not making it any easier am I?

 

[billconner]

Iskweo - Thank you - copy that.

Mike - Columba vs Tranq - I'm checking with factory but pretty sure the Tranq's 1" rocker is total, not bow and stern, so its very slightly less. Also hull width is similar, just that Columba has tumblehome so gunwales are narrower. It is a small concern. Nighthawk does do custom layups. Discussed a few. Possibilities.

With tumblehome doesn't the width at waterline mean more than width at gunwales as far as tippiness?

Do you consider the Swift David Yost round or flat? They call it shallow arch.

It seems the Kee 15 is plenty big enough and 10 pounds less though that is 15 solo to 16 tandem. not sure what seat weighs.

I'd still like to try some of the more boutique manufacturers I noted. They are generally 25+% lower cost and probably more flexible at minor customization. And they claim to have shorter order to delivery times, and I can pick it up rather than pay shipping, though swift would probably get it to a dealer.

Mike - not sure I responded to all your comments, but thank you and enjoying the conversation. Still want to wait to ice out for testing and maybe try the leaning thing in my Tranq, though still struggle with the mechanics when sitting. Kind of imagine leaning, then sliding that way, and in. Oh for youthful knees.

 

[Cheeseandbeans]

I gotta be honest Bill. Your current boat is on my short list of next boats. I would be paddling similar waters- ADKs- New England. Unless you’re dead set on dropping 3k on another boat I would use what you got. Anything significantly more durable will weigh quite a bit more. That being said- I am the last person to say someone has too many boats. If it’s an excuse to add to your collection I completely understand, but the Tranquility should suit these waters fine. Just my opinion.

Bob

 

[billconner]

Bob - I realize your opinion might fit me. On reason to wait for ice out and try "technique". Sort of like trying "life style changes" for high blood pressure and being fat.

In that vein, looking for more on technique, stumbled on this, which probably everyone here has already watched alot: https://www.nfb.ca/film/path_of_the_paddle_solo_basic/. Not sure how much would ever sink in to me, but great film none the less. I'm more put a bubble level at my feet and keep the bubble in that circle kind of guy.

Considering I picked up my Tranq for under $600 lightly used, the $5000+ for a tricked out Kee does give pause. (I'll skip the $800 carbon yoke, but nice to dream.)

Thanks Bob.

 

[ppine]

The paddle world seemed to have gotten along fine for 100 years without much thought given to solo boats. Bill Mason was a good example of a solo paddler that turned his old canoe around and paddled from the bow seat or kneeled on the floor. He was a small man and portaged his tandem wood and canvas canoes all over the place. He liked the Pal and Prospector.

Now we have the endless discussions about the best solo boat. I am starting to feel like it is a black hole.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

From its specs and pictures, the 16' Nighthawk Columba is quite clearly a hull that's been designed for the hard-tracking, non-turny, straight-ahead fast, eat-up-distance segment of the performance spectrum -- a quasi-racing type hull like many of the Wenonahs. It's not a hull for twisty streams.

The 16' Nighthawk Cygnus outfitted as a solo would be more turnable, stable and capacious, but slower.

 

[Alan Gage]

Bill,

Just a note about rocker: It can't be directly compared between manufacturers (or possibly even within the same manufacturer). The reason? Tell me where you would measure the rocker on your canoe. Now ask me where I would measure the rocker. Now ask someone else where they would measure the rocker. The truth is that there is no set standard of where it should be measured.

Obviously if one manufacturer says their boat has 4" of rocker and another brand says their's has 3/4" then, yeah, you can figure there's probably a significant difference. But if one says 1" and another says 1 1/2" or even 2" then I'm not going to put a lot of stock in it.

Alan

 

[MR paddler]

Just a quick comment from a new member. This thread reminds me of similar exchanges….the best rifle for deer hunting, the best fly rod for trout, the best off road tires, etc. There is a point at which many tools will accomplish the same objective; it just depends on how they are used. Does the canoe have enough volume to carry your kit? Is it light enough for you the transport out of the water? Most everything else can be compensated for by the user.

Steve

 

[billconner]

Not looking for best, just one that fits me and has "compensation" requirements my body can achieve.

 

[gumpus]

I think you'd love a Swift Shearwater based on all of your comments. It's a large solo. Stable. Turns really well. Cruises efficiently. Problem is you'll have a hard time finding one to test paddle. I had a Peregrine and loved it and would get another. But it's a lake boat and maneuverability is not one of it's strengths.

 

[Larry650]

I don't know where you hear anything good about the Old Town Pack,
Larry S

Resale value. That's one good thing about the Pack.

 

[Guest]

Resale value. That's one good thing about the Pack.

In defense of the Old Town Pack I bought one new in 1988, when it was one of the least expensive Royalex canoes on the market, and used it/loaned it in some guise for 20 years.

I tripped in the Pack, all over the country, for the first few years. My choices were the Pack, or a built-like-a-tank aluminum Wards Sea King tandem. I was a lot lighter then, and so was my gear load; essentially my backpacking stuff plus a chair and small cooler. A place to sit and a cold beer; I thought I’d died and gone to heaven.

Good things about the OT Pack:

While it was awkward to paddle with a single blade, it did very well with an appropriate length double.

The length to waterline ratio (4.5) offered top end pumpkinseed speed, but the 12’ length made for low wetted surface and little wind catch. For most purposes I was not in a hurry.

It was deep enough at 11 ½” that every minor wave wasn’t pouring over the gunwales, the 12’ length was ideal for tight swamp and marsh explorations, and the flat bottom made it stable easy to hop in and out to get around strainers or across beaver dams.

It really did weigh 33lbs, which made it easy to haul over logs or portage short distances with a strap yoke.

It made a fantastic duckhunting canoe, green hull with DIY camo spray covers and some other custom accessories. Probably a decent pocket fishing canoe too, but I wasn’t fishing at the time.

In later years it made a fine ‘tween-age canoe and daytrip loaner for novice friends. After 20 years of varied service I sold it for a pittance to a friend, my longtime boss actually, and he paddles it still today.

33 years in regular service and counting. Retail in ’88 was under $500. At $15 a year, divided by a dozen trips a year. . . .carry the two. . . . $1.25 a trip.

It is not the canoe Bill is ISO, but bang for buck the Pack may have been the best new canoe purchase I ever made.

 

[billconner]

The Esquif Adirondack is pretty close, just twice the price - not a real surprise in 33 years. And if you google $500 in 1988, it's very close.

I like paddling in places where this is suitable - small still water in reeds or swamp. My favorite place is that last mile or so of the (Quetico) Isabella River before Isabella Lake - a narrow winding channel in tall reeds. My son has orders to take my ashes there.

 

[Guest]

The Esquif Adirondack is pretty close, just twice the price - not a real surprise in 33 years. And if you google $500 in 1988, it's very close.

I like paddling in places where this is suitable - small still water in reeds or swamp.

Bill, I did that inflation pricing exercise when I looked into a rider to insure the family fleet, which includes several boats built in the 70’s, and most of them built into the mid 90’s.

The OT Sockeye was $800 in 1971. That is $5721 in 2021 money. Thank gawd that wonderful hull was a freebie.

The Esquif Adirondack looks like an interesting canoe, but pretty close to what? Not your Tranquility, even with the desire to add more rocker, less weight, etc.

https://esquif.com/en/canoe/adirondack/

In T-formex the Esquif Adirondack seems an awful lot like some vintage RX flatwater hulls. A used Mohawk Solo 13 or 14 (both wonderful canoes) spring to mind.

https://www.mohawkcanoes.com/pages/f...er-canoe-specs

Or other vintage pack-style canoes, even the OT Pack. But, in modern construction, with T-formex, call it 10 lbs of weight added for no-worries plastic.

I keep losing sight of your objectives in a new canoe. There are several niche-builders in the Adirondacks making lightweight composite canoes designed for that area, if not necessarily the varied challenges of NFCT. If you are looking to go different from the Tranquility, less length/more rocker, maybe the Adirondack Canoe Company Boreas.

http://www.adirondackcanoecompany.com/boreas.html

Carbon/kevlar lay-up standard, and that’s a helluva price.

 

[billconner]

Pretty close to the OT Pack you posted about. Just going along with thread hijacking.

 

[Guest]

Pretty close to the OT Pack you posted about.

Bill, I’m not sure if you are comparing the OT Pack to the Adirondack Boreas, but by every listed spec those are very different canoes. I doubt the Boreas is what you are looking for but, for comparison, Pack vs web seated Boreas specs:

Length: 12’ vs 14’
Waterline width: 31 ¾” vs 24”
Depth: 11 ½” vs 13 ½”
Weight 33lbs vs 27lbs
Length to waterline ratio: 4.53 vs 7.0

I don’t know if the rocker on the Pack was ever specified. The Pack had at least a little rocker, although more like stem rise at the very ends, the Boreas specs asymmetrical rocker with a skegged stern, 2” bow, 1 ½” stern.

The biggest dimensional differences between those two solo canoes are center depth, and the length to waterline ratio.

Just an extra inch of depth can make a huge difference with a loaded tripping canoe but, depending on hull length and width, is hard to calculate in any meaningful way.

The length to waterline ratio is easier to calculate. Your Tranquility has a (waterline guesstimated) LW of approximately 6.6 (length in inches divided by waterline width). Those L/W number typically fall within a narrow range; a 10’ long pumpkinseed rec kayak might have a L/W of 4ish, and a moderately fast sea kayak in the high 8’s.

I know speed is not of the essence to your criteria, but unless you have some river current helping push things along a L/W under 5 is noticeably pokey in a solo canoe, requiring more effort to sustain even a modest cruising speed.

Even my beamy, big load hauler soloized Penobscot scores a 5.87. A sleek solo tripper like the Wenonah Encounter (17’ x 30”) has a LW of 6.8. Our current “fastest” canoe, the decked MR Monarch (17’ 3” x 29 ½”), has a 7.01 LW ratio.

 

[billconner]

I think i clearly said the Esquif Adirondack was similar to the OT Pack. Where did Boreas come in? Not me.

Read this https://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/pete-hornbeck-canoes and now it feels unpatriotic to not get a Hornbeck. Good read.

 

[billconner]

Well, visited Hornbeck today. 3 1/2 hours each way, and first half was in a blizzard with white outs. On April 22.

Started with a new tricks 14. Quickly figured out it would never be for me. Far too little initial stability. Never felt comfortable for one stroke i n a couple of laps around the pond.

Then tried a classic 14. At least I stayed dry, or didn't get wetter. Tried my packs, and found I'd have to change one completely.
Ultimately I concluded pack style canoes are not for me. I just fit better and feel comfortable on a bench seat. So the search continues.

Hornbeck and the people seem wonderful. Great and valuable experience.

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