A Legit ‘Expedition’ Hull Material

[Black_Fly]

My Swift P14 is “Expedition Kevlar.” Unfortunately, it’s about 12 lbs heavier than I consider ideal for portaging with a modestly loaded pack. The cracking of the gelt coat can also be problematic.

I was just wondering what lighter-weight hull material folks would consider adequate for off the beaten track tripping? Swift’s Expedition Carbon is certainly light enough, but how tough is it really?

 

[Tryin']

"Tough enough" is a spectrum, in my experience. For some, a 20lb carbon hull is fine; always wet footing, always deep water. For others, tri-link poly is barely adequate. Throwing the hull off the truck, storing out in the sun, dragging across parking lots....

I haven't needed anything tougher than Royalex, and I sure don't like the weight. I have needed tougher than Blue Steel, but that was my own fault. And, it held up better than I deserved.

It seems to me that any full-size, outfitted craft under 35-40lbs is kind of a specialist conveyance, and one that will need a bit of special care throughout its life. That said, I haven't seen any canoes from a reputable manufacturer suddenly and catastrophically fail while in use as designed.

 

[Alan Gage]

Tryin' makes good points. I think the big question is whether or not you're running whitewater. If not then I think even the very lightweight layups would probably be fine. Maybe even better suited since the light weight will make it more likely that you'll carry it instead of drag it and also less likely that you'll drop it.

"Off the beaten track" is also pretty subjective. To some that could mean a weekend at Quetico and to others it could mean a month in the barrens. I wouldn't feel comfortable in a truly lightweight hull if I was going to be hundreds of miles from the nearest assistance with nearly zero chance of coming across another paddler.

Alan

 

[Black_Fly]

I don’t run whitewater when I can help it. I line some, when it looks right. I haven’t had any catastrophic failures, but don’t want any either. My experience has been in somewhat tame, well known waters. Sketchy portages around rocky areas gives me pause with a UL boat.

 

[Gamma1214]

I'll agree w/ Alan that a lighter boat is more likely to be "durable" in a wilderness setting simply because you're more willing to carry it than you might a heavier hull. While the heaviest of boats might withstand impacts / potential wraps better, a featherweight might get you home unscathed because you treated it more tenderly.

If avoiding whitewater and rocky landing / dropping it on a portage are your only concerns, a featherweight should be ideal. Because it has less mass, it's less likely to be damaged from a drop and a deep scratch from a landing can be "repaired" in the field w/ good tape. (@Erica did quite a bit of that on her Cree River expedition)

 

[Steve in Idaho]

I don’t run whitewater when I can help it. I line some, when it looks right. I haven’t had any catastrophic failures, but don’t want any either. My experience has been in somewhat tame, well known waters. Sketchy portages around rocky areas gives me pause with a UL boat.

I don't think you have to worry much about sketchy portages. I've banged on rocks and trees during carries with my kevlar canoes, and never got more than scratches. Yeah, scratches ain't pretty, but they don't really matter unless it's a boat I want to sell.

But I think there can be a legitimate preference. My Millbrook and my Clipper are both kevlar with S glass skin - no gelcoat. I'm not as abusive with the Clipper as I am with my Millbrook Coho, but neither have anything worse than the multitude of surface scratches they show. The Coho is my poling canoe, so it sees a lot of bony rivers and has even crashed into some rocks pretty hard with no significant damage. In fact, when I took delivery of the Coho, the damaged packaging made it obvious that a forklift driver had tried to skewer the boat, but the damage to the hull was so insignificant that I chose to ignore it.

And that is why I am on the lookout for a used Millbrook whitewater solo for sale in my vicinity.....Or even a Clipper Prospector 14.

 

[MyKneesHurt]

I talked back and forth with a well-known skin-on-frame builder maybe a decade ago and one of the things he said that stuck with me was - generally speaking, 30-pound boats are all about as tough as one another; same with 40-pound boats, and 50-pound boats. I've thought that way ever since, even though he was speaking strictly in terms of skin-on-frame, and what I know of modern space-age canoes reinforces it. I think Gamma has a good point in that you'll baby a light canoe and in doing so preserve it from the worst of tripping accidents.

 

[Black_Fly]

I talked back and forth with a well-known skin-on-frame builder maybe a decade ago and one of the things he said that stuck with me was - generally speaking, 30-pound boats are all about as tough as one another; same with 40-pound boats, and 50-pound boats. I've thought that way ever since, even though he was speaking strictly in terms of skin-on-frame, and what I know of modern space-age canoes reinforces it. I think Gamma has a good point in that you'll baby a light canoe and in doing so preserve it from the worst of tripping accidents.

I kicked this around a little and sure, one will baby a light canoe. But planning for things to go wrong can mean the difference in surviving or thriving and death or misery. I plan to be careful, like always. I wet foot, land parallel, don’t push the whitewater runs. What happens when I unintentionally end up in a fast rock garden? Maybe I miss the landing before a rapid. Perhaps my boot slips on a rock on a steep portage and my canoe takes the express route downhill. No amount of being careful makes up for the unforeseen, outright mistakes or simple happenstance. That doesn’t mean we all should take bulletproof heavy hulls on trips, but the weight to risk ratio is something to consider.

That said, my tripper is a 28 lb UL. Im good as dead .

 

[gumpus]

I talked back and forth with a well-known skin-on-frame builder maybe a decade ago and one of the things he said that stuck with me was - generally speaking, 30-pound boats are all about as tough as one another; same with 40-pound boats, and 50-pound boats.

As an engineer I have to challenge this thinking. Even if you assume that all boats are made with the same materials and processes, some 40 pound boats will be a little stronger or weaker than others and IMO it is worth understanding how the best performance is achieved. Product Development is all about "beating the average" which requires knowledge. But even more fundamentally you can shift the whole curve (change the game) with technology. Swift's carbon/kevlar gunwales take about 6 pounds off a boat without touching the hull (32 pounds vs 38 for Black Fly's boat - taking it from an almost 40 pound boat to just over 30). Dave Curtis' boats have been light and quite strong for decades partly because they are built by hand by someone with a lot of experience and they do not have the vulnerability of a foam core like most new boats, plus they have a gelcoat to absorb some abrasion. I consider Northstar's IXP lay-up a game-changer in terms of weight vs durability since now you can get a solo under 40 pounds with durability that may exceed Royalex (I'd expect a 40 pound IXP Phoenix to handle hard rock hits better than my 42 pound Hemlock SRT). Souris River's approach of using epoxy resin on a very flexible skin results in quite a light yet tough boat. I think the Northstar IXP, Hemlock, and Souris River boats all offer better than average durability vs weight due to their unusual (unique?) designs, materials, and manufacturing processes.

 

[Pseudonym]

For my purposes, an expedition layup would need to accommodate the dragging of a loaded hull through a shallow patch of river. My experience skews to Maine, where that need is constant, but it’s not practical to unload a canoe when you’re held up on a gravel bar in the middle of a river. All my river boats are Royalex but I’d like to upgrade at some point and I appreciate the insight of those of you who know those layups well.

 

[Alan Gage]

but it’s not practical to unload a canoe when you’re held up on a gravel bar in the middle of a river. All my river boats are Royalex but I’d like to upgrade at some point and I appreciate the insight of those of you who know those layups well.

I think some of that would depend on the type of rocks that make up these gravel bars and how extensive they are. I wouldn't think twice about dragging a semi-lightweight composite canoe over a submerged gravel bar of rounded river rocks for 20 yard but I might think twice if they the bars were made up of sharp rocks or required longer drags.

I think it also depends on how much repair work the owner is prepared to do themself or pay for. It takes a lot to wear through or damage a hull to the point it can't be paddled. If a person doesn't mind doing some minor repair work on a lightly damaged hull after a trip (filling deep scratches or applying a small patch or two) then they can get by with a lighter layup. If repair work is something they want nothing to do with then they should have something more robust.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Here's an old post from the BWCA forum with some input from Rob Kesselring on his 30 pound tandem after 20+ trips to the BWCA, many of which were likely guiding trips. At the end of the post he mentions he had recently bought an even lighter version of the hull.

BWCA: Savage River Deep Creek

Gear Forum - Savage River Deep Creek

bwca.com

 

[MyKneesHurt]

As an engineer I have to challenge this thinking. Even if you assume that all boats are made with the same materials and processes, some 40 pound boats will be a little stronger or weaker than others and IMO it is worth understanding how the best performance is achieved. Product Development is all about "beating the average" which requires knowledge. But even more fundamentally you can shift the whole curve (change the game) with technology. Swift's carbon/kevlar gunwales take about 6 pounds off a boat without touching the hull (32 pounds vs 38 for Black Fly's boat - taking it from an almost 40 pound boat to just over 30). Dave Curtis' boats have been light and quite strong for decades partly because they are built by hand by someone with a lot of experience and they do not have the vulnerability of a foam core like most new boats, plus they have a gelcoat to absorb some abrasion. I consider Northstar's IXP lay-up a game-changer in terms of weight vs durability since now you can get a solo under 40 pounds with durability that may exceed Royalex (I'd expect a 40 pound IXP Phoenix to handle hard rock hits better than my 42 pound Hemlock SRT). Souris River's approach of using epoxy resin on a very flexible skin results in quite a light yet tough boat. I think the Northstar IXP, Hemlock, and Souris River boats all offer better than average durability vs weight due to their unusual (unique?) designs, materials, and manufacturing processes.

I will certainly bow to superior knowledge, but it's a hard theory to let go. Because I like an argument, I'll point out there's really only one example here of two equivalent boats being considerably different in toughness - your 40# IXP Phoenix vs 42# SRT - and that is hypothetical, not empirical. I'm happy to explode my theory (or have it exploded), but I am interested in learning more.
I know virtually nothing about Souris River, but an epoxied-yet-flexible hull is the principle behind skin-on-frames, and I have consistently taken those far beyond what I thought they could handle.