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Solo Canoe Search Beginning

I think the popular Swift Kevlar Fusion lay-up has quite a bit of flexibility in the chines and side areas that aren't supported by the foam core so my guess is that's why they spider crack.

That's probably a good point about flexibility and spider cracking. I had a Magic in Kevlight layup and it had quite a few spider cracks. As I recall all of them were in the chines/sides where there was no foam core. I don't recall any spider cracks on the bottom of the hull and it went over plenty of rocks and gravel bars. I remember watching one happen when I pulled up to a dock and a wave gently pushed the canoe into a small bracket/bump on the dock. It was a very mild impact but that minimal force was concentrated in a very small area on the side of the canoe. It flexed inward and immediately spider cracked. I was shocked as I wouldn't have even expected a scratch due to that contact.

Alan
 
I saw an OT Cascade for sale in Alabama


Thank you, I appreciate the heads up! I actually saw this one a couple of days ago and reached out to him about it. He sent me some pics of the bottom and it was a little more worn than I was willing to make the 9.5 hr drive for. Not terrible, but worn through the vinyl in one of the stems and some decent dents. I would probably want to immediately put skid plates on it and I have too many projects in progress right now to add another. I need this new boat to be worry free for at least a short while lol. If I were closer I might still have gone for it, the price is not bad for the shape it’s in.

Since I’m going used now, I may actually end up with a couple of different boats… will post an update later on one I’m picking up Saturday…
 
Ok, so time for an update. It’s another long post, I apologize in advance. On Friday, I took off work, left at 5am, and drove up to Rutabaga to test paddle some boats:

I did not test paddle the Pocket Canyon but I did sit in one, and I was surprised at how wide the paddling station felt. It seemed wider than my Wenonah Prospector 15 and I know it’s not, so I’m guessing the seat was just more toward the center and the paddling station itself was a bit wider. I am still interested in paddling one sometime, but it didn’t seem different enough from my prospector in width to be what I’m looking for right now. I definitely want at least a little more speed and compactness while also still having good maneuverability, so I checked it off the list for now.

I was surprised to learn they had a Dragonfly 15 available for test paddling and was super excited to try it out. Unfortunately it was not what I was expecting and while it’s still an awesome boat, it’s not for me. I wasn’t in it for long, about 5 minutes, but it was super tippy feeling to me (even tried kneeling and still felt tippy) and I never got comfortable enough sitting in it to want to leave the dock. It just took too much effort and focus to be able to relax in it. I will post some more detail in the DF15 thread, but overall a cool boat, definitely a sports car for someone, but not what I was looking for (even though on paper I’d have sworn it was). I am very glad I got to get in one and find out. Pretty much also tells me the SRT is 100% out for me and also matches all of the advice on the SRT provided in this thread as well.

Next up was the Swift Prospector 14. I didn’t plan on testing this one, but after the DF15, they recommended trying it and I was thinking “yeah, geez, maybe I need all the extra stability it has”. And I must say I was very impressed with it. It is a fairly shallow boat on paper, but with the high volume it had a ton of freeboard even though I’m a bigger dude. It also accelerated much faster than I expected and even though it felt like it topped out fairly quickly, it was at a decent speed for me. It was very comfortable and just stupidly stable even with the seat in the higher seating position (it had the adjustable height pods). It also turned easier than I expected with the 1” of rocker. It felt easier to turn than my Polaris, and it even improved some when heeled, but it is so stable it took work to heel it much. As if it wanted to shove you back upright to the flat position. Still nowhere close to the MR Guide in turning, but closer in speed than I expected, and more stable. Again, it impressed me much more than I thought it would, and realistically it would probably be fine for a majority of what I do, although ideally I’d want a bit more top speed and a bit easier turning (don’t we all?).

So lastly we moved on to the Phoenix. Initial feelings were that it was a touch less stable than the P14, but I found that it was very comfortable to heel and lean in. It pushed back just the right amount. But lightyears more stable than the DF15 to me. Comfortable to just sit in, but capable of more performance than the P14. Very much like the MR Guide in stability. Then I paddled it. I do tend to paddle hard, but in three strokes it was faster than the P14’s cruising speed. In 4 it was faster than the Guide’s cruising speed. In 5 or 6 I was topped out but had generated some wind on my face and I thought “wow, this is nice”. I gave it a lean and a bow jam and the stern skidded around beautifully and I thought, “well that’s it, this is the one”. I paddled it around quite a bit more and found nothing I disliked. The acceleration shocked me, the top speed was good (to me anyway, I know it’s not an Advantage or a racing boat), and it complied easily with everything I asked of it. It’s a composite, lighter, newer, better Mad River Guide. That’s a little hyperbolic, and the Guide may still be a bit more “turn-y”, but it does have a lot of similarities and was a blast to paddle, at least to me. I loved it.

I also had some great conversations with different folks at Rutabaga about boats, paddles, history, etc and overall just had a great experience. I went ahead and put in an order for a Phoenix and already can’t wait for it to come in.

Now, that being said I had also already bought a used boat. The week before I had been offered a great price on a boat that doesn’t turn up that often and I just couldn’t pass it up so I had already paid for it and still needed to pick it up. So after test paddling at Rutabaga, I immediately headed for Michigan and caught the most brutal Chicago rush hour traffic you can imagine, AND even got rear ended (very minimal damage to my trailer, and a bent hitch were the worst of it luckily). But it was all worth it as I am now the proud owner of a beautiful Bell Starfire in the white gold layup, thanks to @gumpus. It was really great meeting a fellow forum member in person and I wish I’d had more time to stay and paddle. The conversation was great, I got to see more boats I’d never seen in person before, and as a bonus, Gumpus and his wife treated us to some homemade blueberry muffins for the road. Very much worth the drive and the Chicago traffic. Made it back to St. Louis around 1:30 am (Central time, that MI Eastern time zone got me twice). I can’t believe I haven’t had a chance to paddle the Starfire yet but by no later than Wednesday that boat will be in the water come heck or high water (the profanity filter still works fyi). It’s beautiful, deeper than I expected (a good thing to me), and from all reports will be lovely to paddle. Did I mention it’s beautiful? Because it’s beautiful.

So overall big weekend for me, lots of great folks and experiences, lots of driving, and two awesome boats added to the stable.
 
Ok, so time for an update. It’s another long post, I apologize in advance. On Friday, I took off work, left at 5am, and drove up to Rutabaga to test paddle some boats:

I did not test paddle the Pocket Canyon but I did sit in one, and I was surprised at how wide the paddling station felt. It seemed wider than my Wenonah Prospector 15 and I know it’s not, so I’m guessing the seat was just more toward the center and the paddling station itself was a bit wider. I am still interested in paddling one sometime, but it didn’t seem different enough from my prospector in width to be what I’m looking for right now. I definitely want at least a little more speed and compactness while also still having good maneuverability, so I checked it off the list for now.

I was surprised to learn they had a Dragonfly 15 available for test paddling and was super excited to try it out. Unfortunately it was not what I was expecting and while it’s still an awesome boat, it’s not for me. I wasn’t in it for long, about 5 minutes, but it was super tippy feeling to me (even tried kneeling and still felt tippy) and I never got comfortable enough sitting in it to want to leave the dock. It just took too much effort and focus to be able to relax in it. I will post some more detail in the DF15 thread, but overall a cool boat, definitely a sports car for someone, but not what I was looking for (even though on paper I’d have sworn it was). I am very glad I got to get in one and find out. Pretty much also tells me the SRT is 100% out for me and also matches all of the advice on the SRT provided in this thread as well.

Next up was the Swift Prospector 14. I didn’t plan on testing this one, but after the DF15, they recommended trying it and I was thinking “yeah, geez, maybe I need all the extra stability it has”. And I must say I was very impressed with it. It is a fairly shallow boat on paper, but with the high volume it had a ton of freeboard even though I’m a bigger dude. It also accelerated much faster than I expected and even though it felt like it topped out fairly quickly, it was at a decent speed for me. It was very comfortable and just stupidly stable even with the seat in the higher seating position (it had the adjustable height pods). It also turned easier than I expected with the 1” of rocker. It felt easier to turn than my Polaris, and it even improved some when heeled, but it is so stable it took work to heel it much. As if it wanted to shove you back upright to the flat position. Still nowhere close to the MR Guide in turning, but closer in speed than I expected, and more stable. Again, it impressed me much more than I thought it would, and realistically it would probably be fine for a majority of what I do, although ideally I’d want a bit more top speed and a bit easier turning (don’t we all?).

So lastly we moved on to the Phoenix. Initial feelings were that it was a touch less stable than the P14, but I found that it was very comfortable to heel and lean in. It pushed back just the right amount. But lightyears more stable than the DF15 to me. Comfortable to just sit in, but capable of more performance than the P14. Very much like the MR Guide in stability. Then I paddled it. I do tend to paddle hard, but in three strokes it was faster than the P14’s cruising speed. In 4 it was faster than the Guide’s cruising speed. In 5 or 6 I was topped out but had generated some wind on my face and I thought “wow, this is nice”. I gave it a lean and a bow jam and the stern skidded around beautifully and I thought, “well that’s it, this is the one”. I paddled it around quite a bit more and found nothing I disliked. The acceleration shocked me, the top speed was good (to me anyway, I know it’s not an Advantage or a racing boat), and it complied easily with everything I asked of it. It’s a composite, lighter, newer, better Mad River Guide. That’s a little hyperbolic, and the Guide may still be a bit more “turn-y”, but it does have a lot of similarities and was a blast to paddle, at least to me. I loved it.

I also had some great conversations with different folks at Rutabaga about boats, paddles, history, etc and overall just had a great experience. I went ahead and put in an order for a Phoenix and already can’t wait for it to come in.

Now, that being said I had also already bought a used boat. The week before I had been offered a great price on a boat that doesn’t turn up that often and I just couldn’t pass it up so I had already paid for it and still needed to pick it up. So after test paddling at Rutabaga, I immediately headed for Michigan and caught the most brutal Chicago rush hour traffic you can imagine, AND even got rear ended (very minimal damage to my trailer, and a bent hitch were the worst of it luckily). But it was all worth it as I am now the proud owner of a beautiful Bell Starfire in the white gold layup, thanks to @gumpus. It was really great meeting a fellow forum member in person and I wish I’d had more time to stay and paddle. The conversation was great, I got to see more boats I’d never seen in person before, and as a bonus, Gumpus and his wife treated us to some homemade blueberry muffins for the road. Very much worth the drive and the Chicago traffic. Made it back to St. Louis around 1:30 am (Central time, that MI Eastern time zone got me twice). I can’t believe I haven’t had a chance to paddle the Starfire yet but by no later than Wednesday that boat will be in the water come heck or high water (the profanity filter still works fyi). It’s beautiful, deeper than I expected (a good thing to me), and from all reports will be lovely to paddle. Did I mention it’s beautiful? Because it’s beautiful.

So overall big weekend for me, lots of great folks and experiences, lots of driving, and two awesome boats added to the stable.

Yer killin,' me. :D
I had a feeling that the Phoenix was gonna get ya. Thanks for the comparison with the Guide. Very useful to me.
 
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Ok, so time for an update. It’s another long post, I apologize in advance. On Friday, I took off work, left at 5am, and drove up to Rutabaga to test paddle some boats:



I was surprised to learn they had a Dragonfly 15 available for test paddling and was super excited to try it out. Unfortunately it was not what I was expecting and while it’s still an awesome boat, it’s not for me. I wasn’t in it for long, about 5 minutes, but it was super tippy feeling to me (even tried kneeling and still felt tippy) and I never got comfortable enough sitting in it to want to leave the dock. It just took too much effort and focus to be able to relax in it. I will post some more detail in the DF15 thread, but overall a cool boat, definitely a sports car for someone, but not what I was looking for (even though on paper I’d have sworn it was). I am very glad I got to get in one and find out. Pretty much also tells me the SRT is 100% out for me and also matches all of the advice on the SRT provided in this thread as well.



So lastly we moved on to the Phoenix. Initial feelings were that it was a touch less stable than the P14, but I found that it was very comfortable to heel and lean in. It pushed back just the right amount. But lightyears more stable than the DF15 to me. Comfortable to just sit in, but capable of more performance than the P14. Very much like the MR Guide in stability. Then I paddled it. I do tend to paddle hard, but in three strokes it was faster than the P14’s cruising speed. In 4 it was faster than the Guide’s cruising speed. In 5 or 6 I was topped out but had generated some wind on my face and I thought “wow, this is nice”. I gave it a lean and a bow jam and the stern skidded around beautifully and I thought, “well that’s it, this is the one”. I paddled it around quite a bit more and found nothing I disliked. The acceleration shocked me, the top speed was good (to me anyway, I know it’s not an Advantage or a racing boat), and it complied easily with everything I asked of it. It’s a composite, lighter, newer, better Mad River Guide. That’s a little hyperbolic, and the Guide may still be a bit more “turn-y”, but it does have a lot of similarities and was a blast to paddle, at least to me. I loved it.
Wished you would have pushed off a gave the DF 15 a test paddle. I'm interested in that canoe because the specs look very similar to the Swift Raven which I like a lot.

However, I'm quite surprised you like the Phoenix because the specs has it 2 inches narrower at the water line. I've not paddled either canoe but I was under the impression the waterline width would give you an idea what kind of initial stability you will experience.
 
Wished you would have pushed off a gave the DF 15 a test paddle. I'm interested in that canoe because the specs look very similar to the Swift Raven which I like a lot.

However, I'm quite surprised you like the Phoenix because the specs has it 2 inches narrower at the water line. I've not paddled either canoe but I was under the impression the waterline width would give you an idea what kind of initial stability you will experience.
My engineer comment is that specs are not standardized so can be misleading. Even waterline width is elusive since some manufacturers use the 3" width and some the 4" width and one rarely knows the weight required to achieve those numbers so good luck guessing how the waterline widths for 2 boats compare with your actual load.

ABT's comments on the DF15 surprised me too and I would guess that the waterline width comparison to Phoenix should be "apples to appkes" since I think they are both Yost boats.

One thing about the Phoenix is that it has broad shoulders that give a lot of secondary stability as soon as you lean it. The look of the DF15 reminds me of my Swift Osprey. Osprey has much less secondary stability than Phoenix and probably takes less than 10% of the effort to lean a gunwale to the water so even though the spec says 27" waterline width you'd feel way more comfy fishing from a Phoenix. For me the relatuve lack of playfulness was one thing I didn't love about the Phoenix but depending on the paddler and where they paddle the predictability could be a great feature.
 
Wished you would have pushed off a gave the DF 15 a test paddle. I'm interested in that canoe because the specs look very similar to the Swift Raven which I like a lot.

However, I'm quite surprised you like the Phoenix because the specs has it 2 inches narrower at the water line. I've not paddled either canoe but I was under the impression the waterline width would give you an idea what kind of initial stability you will experience.

I think Gumpus hit the nail on the head. I was apparently typing while he was so a lot of this says the same thing in a slightly different way.

In general i think it does give you an idea of initial stability but it doesn’t tell the whole story. For truly flat bottomed boats it would probably be close to 100% accurate, but for bottoms with an arc the hull profile does play an important part.

I read a FB post a couple weeks ago about a side by side comparison of the two, and the two paddlers involved both said the DF15 sat clearly lower in the water with the same paddler under the same conditions. I’ll try to find it and copy/paste the exact verbiage later. That’s interesting to me because the DF 15 is longer, similarly full in the ends, and the same max beam. But, it’s also an inch deeper. And it felt and looked noticeably rounder bottomed, which tells me at least part of that extra depth is in the added roundness of the hull. Not surprising given its predecessor the original DF had a reputation of being very round and twitchy. So maybe the gunwales to chines is about the same, or similar anyway vs the phoenix, but from the chines to the center of the bottom is “lower” in the DF15. Even if the total arc is bigger than in the Phoenix (resulting in the wider waterline width), if it’s more round vs shallow arch it will be easier to rotate, which definitely matches my experience. The attached exaggerated pic illustrates this: dotted line is waterline width and the line is the same length on each arc so you can see the waterline width is wider on the rounder arc (which is just a copy of the other arc with the bottom pulled down). You have a hotter, more responsive boat if you can control that easier rotation. I obviously could not 😂. Conversely, the P14 I believe was shallower still as well as being wider, and really resisted rotation.
 

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My engineer comment is that specs are not standardized so can be misleading. Even waterline width is elusive since some manufacturers use the 3" width and some the 4" width and one rarely knows the weight required to achieve those numbers so good luck guessing how the waterline widths for 2 boats compare with your actual load.

ABT's comments on the DF15 surprised me too and I would guess that the waterline width comparison to Phoenix should be "apples to appkes" since I think they are both Yost boats.

One thing about the Phoenix is that it has broad shoulders that give a lot of secondary stability as soon as you lean it. The look of the DF15 reminds me of my Swift Osprey. Osprey has much less secondary stability than Phoenix and probably takes less than 10% of the effort to lean a gunwale to the water so even though the spec says 27" waterline width you'd feel way more comfy fishing from a Phoenix. For me the relatuve lack of playfulness was one thing I didn't love about the Phoenix but depending on the paddler and where they paddle the predictability could be a great feature.

This has been an enlightening discussion. Think I’ll need to test paddle a Phoenix somewhere. Like ABT I enjoy being able to sit in the canoe, blade out of the water and soak up my surroundings without feeling I need to actively manage the canoe.
 
Finally got to get out in the Starfire tonight for about 45 minutes. I had limited time so I put in on a local creek, fairly close to where it empties into the Mississippi. I don’t use it often because it has so little current it’s almost stagnant and it is not very pretty. But the slow water is fine for trying out a new boat. And holy smokes this boat is fun! I have now seen what all the hype about the Fire series is firsthand and have to say it is well warranted. As expected, it was very responsive to every paddle stroke. It of course loved turning, but was also not hard at all to keep straight with a good correction stroke. It has kneeling drops and felt just a hair tippy when I first sat down but it quickly passed and felt just fine afterwards. You can lean pretty far even seated up high and it will still keep you from taking a swim. I wouldn’t call it super fast, but it accelerated very quickly and as long as you kept paddling with correction it would carry on at a good clip. Faster than my Prospector 15, not as fast as the Phoenix, but probably almost as fast as my Polaris (which is the same width and also a Yost design). But the Polaris glides for days when you pause your cadence whereas the Starfire immediately yaws off course as if to say “hey you stopped paying attention to me, what gives?”. It reminded me of a golden retriever that just wants you to keep throwing the ball, and I was all too happy to oblige. Turning is obviously where this boat excels and skidding the stern around is fast, graceful, and addictive. I’ve also never moved a boat as fast with a sculling draw as this one. It felt like it skids sideways almost as fast is it goes forward. This one will give me lots to play with and learn I think. It also has plenty of room for carrying any size cooler, chair, fishing stuff, overnight gear, etc.

And, as an added bonus, I tried kneeling in it and it was NOT MISERABLE!!! I spent the last 15-20 minutes kneeling with just my neoprene pad. Even though my Polaris has kneeling drops as well, that would have been all I could stand and it would have been difficult to un-kink my legs and stand up afterwards. It’s been that way every time I’ve done it. In this boat I felt I could have kneeled (knelt?) much longer with only relatively minor discomfort. Something about the seat height, angle, bottom curve, etc. fit me just right and was the most comfortable I’ve ever been kneeling in a boat with a traditional seat, and with no ankle blocks. I’m beyond excited about this discovery and can’t wait to get back out in it on a faster river with some obstacles. This boat fits me very well and I think we’re going to be good buddies for a long long time. Between this and the Phoenix I think I’m pretty set for now. It’s good to have options when the options are so good.
 
Finally got to get out in the Starfire tonight for about 45 minutes. I had limited time so I put in on a local creek, fairly close to where it empties into the Mississippi. I don’t use it often because it has so little current it’s almost stagnant and it is not very pretty. But the slow water is fine for trying out a new boat. And holy smokes this boat is fun! I have now seen what all the hype about the Fire series is firsthand and have to say it is well warranted. As expected, it was very responsive to every paddle stroke. It of course loved turning, but was also not hard at all to keep straight with a good correction stroke. It has kneeling drops and felt just a hair tippy when I first sat down but it quickly passed and felt just fine afterwards. You can lean pretty far even seated up high and it will still keep you from taking a swim. I wouldn’t call it super fast, but it accelerated very quickly and as long as you kept paddling with correction it would carry on at a good clip. Faster than my Prospector 15, not as fast as the Phoenix, but probably almost as fast as my Polaris (which is the same width and also a Yost design). But the Polaris glides for days when you pause your cadence whereas the Starfire immediately yaws off course as if to say “hey you stopped paying attention to me, what gives?”. It reminded me of a golden retriever that just wants you to keep throwing the ball, and I was all too happy to oblige. Turning is obviously where this boat excels and skidding the stern around is fast, graceful, and addictive. I’ve also never moved a boat as fast with a sculling draw as this one. It felt like it skids sideways almost as fast is it goes forward. This one will give me lots to play with and learn I think. It also has plenty of room for carrying any size cooler, chair, fishing stuff, overnight gear, etc.

And, as an added bonus, I tried kneeling in it and it was NOT MISERABLE!!! I spent the last 15-20 minutes kneeling with just my neoprene pad. Even though my Polaris has kneeling drops as well, that would have been all I could stand and it would have been difficult to un-kink my legs and stand up afterwards. It’s been that way every time I’ve done it. In this boat I felt I could have kneeled (knelt?) much longer with only relatively minor discomfort. Something about the seat height, angle, bottom curve, etc. fit me just right and was the most comfortable I’ve ever been kneeling in a boat with a traditional seat, and with no ankle blocks. I’m beyond excited about this discovery and can’t wait to get back out in it on a faster river with some obstacles. This boat fits me very well and I think we’re going to be good buddies for a long long time. Between this and the Phoenix I think I’m pretty set for now. It’s good to have options when the options are so good.
I'm very pleased to see this post!
 
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