Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Seat and thwarts in a solo canoe

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    I have two tandems that came with center solo seats (and no yoke) from the factory. The front edge of the Northstar Polaris seat is six inches behind center of boat and it's low and set up for sitting but also works fine for me kneeling with a dog in front of me. The front edge of my Blackhawk Combi center seat is 11 inches behind center of boat and is set up for kneeling. Both of my canoes are asymmetric with more volume behind center of boat than in front of center. I'd expect that somewhere around 6-8 inches behind center should be pretty good for you.

    Comment


      #17
      Adding a center seat takes up a lot of real estate. If you plan on tripping you may regret not having room for all of your gear. If kneeling I would suggest adding a kneeling thwart. This way your also get to keep you carry yoke.

      Kneeling thwarts are much more comfortable than you would think.

      Comment


        #18
        Kneeling thwarts are good. For long days in a canoe at age 70 I want a seat.
        The center seat is going to be great. I may take out the other 2 seats. No big deal to put them back in for a trip.
        Forester

        Comment


          #19
          I built my own removable portage yoke. Where the yoke sets on the gunnels, I padded the wood and clamp brackets with leather. It eliminated the slippage along the gunnels.
          Last edited by dramey; 05-22-2020, 07:50 PM.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by dramey View Post
            I built my own removable portage yoke. Where the yoke sets on the gunnels, I padded the wood and clamp brackets with leather. It eliminated the slippage along the gunnels.
            I just finished one for the Pack, had to put a 5 degree angle on the clamping surface to match up with the angle on the gunnels and cut a few pieces of thin foam rubber off my wife-s yoga pad and bonded them on to reduce slippage. Experimenting with pads, never really happy with any I've used, always sliding around on my shoulders!
            Árinni kennir illur ræðari.
            (A bad rower blames the oar)

            Comment


              #21
              My suggestion: Find the empty canoe trim spot with a water puddle and then relocate that puddle while on a temporary movable seat. Thusly:

              1. Put the thwarts in position. Take out the tandem seats or leave them in, however you're going to paddle it.

              2. Float the empty canoe in shallow water. Pour a glass of water in the bottom. Wherever it puddles is the center of buoyancy of the empty canoe. Mark the center of that puddle with a pen or marker.

              3. Get in the canoe on some sort of temporary movable seat (e.g., milk crate). Sit or kneel, whichever you mostly do. Pour a glass of water in the bottom. Move your temporary seat fore and aft until the puddle is centered on the mark.

              4. Put the permanent seat at the location of the temporary seat.

              This procedure should cause your canoe to be trimmed precisely at the empty canoe's design waterline when you are positioned on your solo seat. Of course, once you add an ounce of gear in front or behind you, you'll go out of trim, but c'est le canoë.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
                Wherever it puddles is the center of buoyancy of the empty canoe.
                I've never used this technique but I like the elegant simplicity of it. I'm curious about several things. For a symmetrical hull wouldn't that puddle be centered at the carry yoke? If not, is there a lot of variability amongst canoes where the COB is located? If you lived next to body of water, this would be easy and fun to play with - take the whole fleet to the waters edge.

                Comment


                  #23

                  Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady

                  Wherever it puddles is the center of buoyancy of the empty canoe.

                  Originally posted by Will Derness View Post

                  I've never used this technique but I like the elegant simplicity of it. I'm curious about several things. For a symmetrical hull wouldn't that puddle be centered at the carry yoke? If not, is there a lot of variability amongst canoes where the COB is located?
                  The carry thwart on any canoe would be placed at the upside-down canoe's center of gravity (COG). I'd guess for most traditionally shaped hulls the center of buoyancy (COB) of an empty hull would be just about under a properly balanced carry thwart. However, if the thwart or seats are moved or removed, that will change the canoe's COG and the original carry thwart position may not quite be at the COG balance point anymore. In that case, the COB may be further from the carry thwart position than originally.

                  As a paddler moves fore and aft or heels the canoe, the COG of the canoe+paddler mass will move, and the COB will also move so it remains directly under the changing COG of the canoe+paddler. What my method tries to do is to make sure that the COG of the empty canoe+paddler is in such a position that the COB, directly under the COG, will be in the same place as it was with an empty canoe -- and that the empty canoe+paddler, therefore, will be trimmed on the design waterline.

                  What happens when you move the canoe+paddler COG farther aft, such as by paddling from the bow seat backwards or -- good golly, Miss Molly -- from the stern seat? The COB will move under the new COG, but the waterline of the canoe will bear no resemblance to that designed, after long and expert effort, by Henry Rushton, Mike Galt, Dave Yost or John Winters. The bow will elevate and the canoe will plow through the water on some sort of misshapen Frankenstein waterline, designed by no one. Not very efficient. This is one of the arguments in favor of a centralized solo seat.

                  QUIZ: If you move from kneeling off the front of a central solo seat to sitting on it with your legs extended, will your COG move fore or aft? Stated differently, will the bow go down or up?


                  Last edited by Glenn MacGrady; 05-26-2020, 03:26 AM.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Typically going from kneeling to sitting shifts my COG aft, but by sitting towards the leading edge of the seat and shifting weight onto your feet you can bring your trim back to where it was while kneeling.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
                      The carry thwart on any canoe would be placed at the upside-down canoe's center of gravity (COG). I'd guess for most traditionally shaped hulls the center of buoyancy (COB) of an empty hull would be just about under a properly balanced carry thwart. However, if the thwart or seats are moved or removed, that will change the canoe's COG and the original carry thwart position may not quite be at the COG balance point anymore. In that case, the COB may be further from the carry thwart position than originally.



                      When I am working on rehabbing or retrofitting a canoe the last thing I do, after the seat(s) and drops, thwarts, carry handles, bungee, minicel, webbing loops, D-rings, usual painter line lengths affixed, and 3oz Dynel skid plates have been installed is to hang the canoe from a single webbing strap and mark the exact balance point for a yoke or strap yoke.

                      PC170120 by Mike McCrea, on Flickr

                      Suspended from the hook on the hanging Taylor scale that also gives me a final outfitted weight. Now if I could just remember to weigh the canoes before starting the outfitting. Hey look, we did remember to weigh that Freedom Solo before commencing outfitting; I'm like three for twenty in remembering.



                      Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
                      What happens when you move the canoe+paddler COG farther aft, such as by paddling from the bow seat backwards or -- good golly, Miss Molly -- from the stern seat? The COB will move under the new COG, but the waterline of the canoe will bear no resemblance to that designed, after long and expert effort, by Henry Rushton, Mike Galt, Dave Yost or John Winters. The bow will elevate and the canoe will plow through the water on some sort of misshapen Frankenstein waterline, designed by no one. Not very efficient. This is one of the arguments in favor of a centralized solo seat.


                      That does of course overlook trimming the canoe with the gear load when tripping. I wonder how folks prefer their canoes trimmed, excluding moving gear to be a bit more bow light in a tailwind/more neutral into a headwind, etc.

                      I prefer my canoes, with just me and a light dayload of gear, to be trimmed just a touch bow light. Not misshapen Frankenstein waterline with three feet of bow sticking out of the water, but just a little, an amount I can compensate for when desired by moving a single pack.

                      Other factors, like using a downwind sail towards the bow or always paddling with a dog up front, matter in solo seat placement.

                      I wonder as well about the design philosophy of different manufacturers regarding seat placement and hull trim. Some Wenonah solos seem to have the seat nearer to center hull. Other solo canoes, for design specific purposes, have the seat well aft, like the Nova Craft Super Nova.

                      One of our pollsters should ask:
                      “Where do you prefer a solo seat for hull trim?”
                      Bow heavy (0%?)
                      Neutral
                      A little bow light
                      A lot bow light
                      Depends on the canoe
                      I use a sliding seat
                      Last edited by Mike McCrea; 05-26-2020, 10:29 AM.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Mike McCrea View Post
                        That does of course overlook trimming the canoe with the gear load when tripping.
                        I have excluded gear load from my method of trimming a solo paddled canoe onto the design waterline, for the simple reason that paddling empty on day trips is the way I use my solo canoes the vast majority of time. Yes, I do carry a small day pack that I can shift around on day trips, so I'm never perfectly on the design waterline, but no one ever is.

                        Sure, you could position the solo seat such that the canoe is trimmed on the waterline, or slightly bow light if that's your preference, with a typical load included. But who has a "typical load" most of the time a canoe is used? I mean, every pack would have to be exactly the same, in the same place, with the same weight. So would every cooler, food pack, photography kit, beer stash, and dog (which would have to be anesthetized so it doesn't move). Maybe some paddlers have such an an exactly identical gear load and placement most of the times they paddle a canoe. For them, placing a solo seat with the puddle method perhaps should be done with that exact load in the canoe.

                        But again, for me, the most common use of my solo canoes is to be paddled (almost) empty. So, that's the load condition I trim for. Yes, I might go slightly bow light to compensate for the day bag that is usually in front of me. Marc Ornstein used to have his day bag on a rope so he could toss it on the fly into the bow or stern to make subtle adjustments to trim. That also is the virtue of a sliding solo seat.

                        When I load my solo canoe for the much less common big overnight trip, I, like most trippers, try to equalize the fore and aft loads as much as possible. My SRT's adjustable (but not sliding) seat helps that process.

                        (P.S. to Mike McCrea: Your new font style is sensuous but too small, in my possibly unbalanced opinion.)

                        Comment


                          #27
                          For portaging a solo canoe the balance point is important. I paddle empty sometimes, but often do overnight trips and use the dunnage and my dog to trim the boat. Into the wind I want the bow heavy. For big wave trains, I want the gear moved amidships as far as possible. I sometimes use my well trained Border Collie to fine tune the trim.
                          Forester

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by ppine View Post
                            I sometimes use my well trained Border Collie to fine tune the trim.
                            Good idea. And he or she can even make a puddle if you want to check your trim with that method.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
                              I have excluded gear load from my method of trimming a solo paddled canoe onto the design waterline, for the simple reason that paddling empty on day trips is the way I use my solo canoes the vast majority of time. Yes, I do carry a small day pack that I can shift around on day trips, so I'm never perfectly on the design waterline, but no one ever is.


                              But again, for me, the most common use of my solo canoes is to be paddled (almost) empty.


                              Glenn, we have very different strokes in day paddling gear. I’m trying to remember the last time I day paddled with minimal gear in the canoe. Probably when base camped on a lake, heading out briefly to paddle around a nearby point, ISO firewood. Even then I have my essentials bag, which contains the Silky saw and etc, plus a spare paddle and canteen. Maybe a beer in the canoe console. OK, not “maybe”, sawing wood is thirsty work and deserves a reward.

                              Throw bag always, it accessibly clipped around the stern thwart, even on solo lake trips. I have twice wanted a throw rope on essentially flatwater day trips and not had one. Never again, it is easier to always, always bring it.

                              More typically on an actual daytrip:
                              Spare paddle, and a short push pole closet rod for shallows
                              Essentials bag (saw, suntan lotion, bug spray, flashlight, sunglasses, pipe & tobacco, etc)
                              Throw Rope
                              Canteens, usually two, in the minicel “console”
                              Small cooler with food/beverages (insulated 20L dry bag in a day pack)
                              Back band & seat pad
                              Small dry bag with spare clothes (unless it is 95F, sometimes even then – I like dry clothes)
                              Camera
                              Downwind sail on lakes, bays or wide rivers
                              Bailer & sponge, add bilge pump in the decked canoes
                              Map/map case, even on familiar waters

                              It is usually the same stuff and same-ish weight, give or take a few ounces. I don’t pre-trim the seat position for a day paddling gear load, some stuff goes up front, some behind, some between my legs, habitually loaded in the same locations.

                              At times it seems a crazy amount of gear for a day trip; as much weight and volume as someone like Conk carries on multi-day pond hopping trips.

                              Or not; most of the friends I day paddle with carry much the same, some more. Some much more; folding table, gourmet lunch and large cooler with enough tasty food and drink for everyone. Salads and pastas need bowls and forks, and that pasta pairs well with this wine. Try this pickled asparagus.

                              Willie, Tom and etc, y’all know who you are, and I thank you. Damn pickled asparagus is tasty, what are those spices? Please Sir, may I have another?

                              Originally posted by Glenn MacGrady View Post
                              (P.S. to Mike McCrea: Your new font style is sensuous but too small, in my possibly unbalanced opinion.)


                              I have tried several different fonts and font sizes since the last forum update, and every one, cut and pasted from Word, came out tiny. An Arial font seems to do the trick.

                              As a test, how sensuous is this (cut and pasted in 8pt Arial)
                              Test: Getting Glenn unbalanced with arousal.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                All this talk about gear is a complete distraction from the simple questions of: Where is the optimal position for a centralized solo seat? How do you get it at that position?

                                The optimal position is the one that keeps the canoe on the design waterline (of the empty canoe) when the paddler is kneeling or sitting in his or her most usual position. I consider this principle to be inarguable, and it's the one that I believe all custom and mass manufacturers of solo canoes follow.

                                The harder question is how, practically, does one determine that optimal position. Canoe makers and paddlers have come up with several methods to answer that. Here they are:

                                1. The mass market arbitrary rule method. There are two I know of:

                                (a) An arbitrary number of inches aft of the COG of the canoe (determined by hanging the canoe), usually between 6"-10" aft.

                                (b) The torso method: The most protruding part of the average torso, whether chest or belly, should be just touching the plane of the COG when the paddler is kneeling or sitting.

                                2. The customized to an individual paddler's body method. Again two:

                                (a) Using a water puddle as I've described above.

                                (b) Using a small bubble level. Attach a very small bubble level to the inwale of the canoe at center, so that the bubble is leveled when the empty canoe is floating on its design waterline. When installing the center seat, move the temporary seat (milk crate) fore and aft until the bubble is leveled. Put the permanent seat there.

                                3. Mark the bow with a trim line when the canoe is floating empty on still water. Some manufacturers do this. Move the temporary seat fore and aft until the bow trim line is level with the water. This method requires a second person to observe the bow trim line. A bow trim line is useful to maintain the design waterline trim when different gear loads are put in the canoe. (So is a permanently installed bubble level.)

                                4. Install a sliding seat that will move over a range of about 4"-12" aft of the COG. This is the most versatile method and can be changed on the fly for different wind direction problems. It does add some weight and expense to the canoe. Sliding seats that can be easily removed from the rails are preferable to me, because they can be removed when cartopping, which will stop them from rattling while driving and will deter theft when parked. (Who wants to steal a seatless canoe?)

                                All the gear talk is irrelevant to the optimal initial placement of the solo seat. Whether you paddle a canoe empty for exercise two hours a day or take a bunch of day glamping gear, you can adjust the optimally positioned solo seat canoe trim however you want, bow light or stern light, by shifting your gear around. You can also alter trim by adding rocks or water bags in the bow of the canoe, as solo paddlers have done in tandem canoes forever when they paddle bow-seat-backwards or from the stern.

                                (Simply changing the Word font to this site's default Arial is optimal.)


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X