easier and more pleasing to dig a hole, throw it in, fill it with dirt and plant daisies...
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Happy International Waterfall Day! 🏞😧💦⤵🙃
Why am I the only one in a Canoe?
- Thread starter canoekevin
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you missed one- canoes don't look like they've spent the night with an exceptionally "bad girl" after being tied to a roof rack in 100° heat all day...
As for sexy, while some people look good in neoprene- a guy who's walnut brown on top, and whiter than an arctic icefield below, while wearing a rubber miniskirt, just does not add any points in the attractiveness scale...
Sadness all the way around.Heck no. I feel sorry for whoever gets stuck in the tandems!
Alan
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I am not sure about the water in the boat claim for the double paddle.
I use the J stroke and Canadian and switch sides after every 100 stokes. Hardly any water in the canoe.
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My friends kayaks always have water in them from getting out to get unstuck due to their refusal to learn to read the river.
I think he meant that if one uses a double blade, then the open canoe will collect more water than the topped kayak.
It would be nice if we had some marketing folks, here in the group, along with a production boat builder or two. Perhaps a plan could be hatched to produce a decent, entry level, plastic canoe (think Solo 13 ish) and a marketing plan to go with it. If enough of us got behind a social media campaign, it might just go somewhere. I'm thinking that the price point needs to be below the $1000.00 threshold, maybe $1500.00 That's my gut feeling. Whether or not that's realistic, is above my pay grade.
I see the Old Town Discovery 119 listed for $999 and the Esquif Adirondack listed for $1399 at Rutabaga Paddlesports. As a new / inexperienced canoeist tempted by those prices, I'm curious what else you'd like to see in the entry level price range or if what's missing is mostly the marketing.
I don't see it as a price thing. It's more about availability and perceptions. Canoes of any kind just aren't as available as kayaks. Kayaks are sold at many retailers but not canoes. Kayaks are also the only boats available to rent on many lakes that at one time only had canoes to rent. I also think people perceive kayaks as being easier to move, transport and store, because of their size.
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Sadly, I think Average Joe believes that the $300, 2 piece kayak from Walmart, Rural King or (I suppose) Canadian Tire is every bit as capable as any canoe out there. For his purposes, (and day paddling only) perhaps he's right. It's when you start overnight trips and portaging that the differences become clear.
I've only seen 1 yak on my recent trips but I haven't seen many people either. (just the way I like it)
I've only seen 1 yak on my recent trips but I haven't seen many people either. (just the way I like it)
What I'd like to see is for someone to resurrect the Mohawk Solo 14 mold (if it still exists) and produce it in T-formex or even 3 layer poly. But I don't see that happening. How about it, Old Town?
Honestly, those Discovery 111's aren't as bad as some of us let on. They're just not as efficient as better shapes, but I've seen them do just fine on some pretty significant rapids (with a skilled paddler). That Adirondack looks pretty good too. I would say the Wenonah Fusion should perform a bit better, but at a higher cost than many would accept as entry level.
My advice is always to watch the used market for something like the out of production Mohawk Solo 14. That one is beginner friendly without being boring to an intermediate paddler IMO. Yeah, it can take a while to find one.
I still see the Old Town Pack showing up in good condition on the used market, and I would choose that over a new Discovery 111.
The good news is that both of these boats show that it is possible to produce canoes in the $1000.00 range. Both are essentially "beginner" boats or fishing platforms in that they are both quite wide and flat bottomed. Hard to learn good technique when you can't easily reach over the side and maintain a vertical paddle shaft. Likewise, lot's of initial stability, little secondary and nearly impossible to heel. The Mohawk, Solo 13 had none of these design issues and should be moldable at a similar price point. So from a price/design concept, It appears that it can be done.
If these boats were mass marketed through major retailers, in the way that many kayaks are, perhaps more people would see that they have a choice in solo craft. How one gets these boats into that broader market, I don't know. I doubt that either Old Town or Esquif have the production capacity to supply the like of Walmart or perhaps even Tractor Supply, with even a single boat per store. Maybe enough for Dicks or Gander Mountain?
If these boats were mass marketed through major retailers, in the way that many kayaks are, perhaps more people would see that they have a choice in solo craft. How one gets these boats into that broader market, I don't know. I doubt that either Old Town or Esquif have the production capacity to supply the like of Walmart or perhaps even Tractor Supply, with even a single boat per store. Maybe enough for Dicks or Gander Mountain?
I think a solo like the Swift Prospector 13 but with lower stems would make a good option for people looking for an alternative to a rec kayak. It's pretty stable for its 30" max width but is still a fun lively canoe. Not going to set speed records but it'll get you there. It would be interesting to see how a 30" max width Prospector 14 would handle. A good possibility for larger paddlers is the Slipstream Inspire 14.5 but again, with lower stems. I tried it out at the WPASCR and was impressed with it's nice balance between stability and liveliness. The big question is: Could you build these in plastic at a reasonable weight and cost?
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Idunno. I always thought of my MR Guide as a 14' mini Prospector. That boat has been described by beginners as unsafe and uncontrollable. And I doubt if many beginners would be happy in a Wildfire.
Cost... I think so. Weight? Probably not - but we'd be talking about mostly young people, right? I used to carry a 60 lb tandem around and not think much of it as a novice.
Cost... I think so. Weight? Probably not - but we'd be talking about mostly young people, right? I used to carry a 60 lb tandem around and not think much of it as a novice.
I think we, as aficionados of fine canoes put too much emphasis on light weight. I don't mean this in terms of our personal desires. Most of us began with much heavier canoes and gradually migrated to lighter ones, as our skills and resources allowed. What I'm referring to is beginner/entry level canoes. Heavier canoes are more stable, (compared to a similar, but lighter versions of the same design) and thus less twitchy during the early learning stages. And, as Tom noted, when we were younger, we didn't mind toting around a heavy boat. I often help my kayak friends carry their tupperware boats to the water (I know, I'm an enabler). Many of them are very heavy and they don't seem to mind the weight.
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One of the most popular recreational kayaks is the $1000 Wilderness Systems Pungo 120. I see them on the river pretty frequently. They're 50 lbs, so not crazy heavy. About the same price and weight as a Discovery 119. I don't think weight or price have anything to do with the disparity in sales between kayaks and canoes. I think it's the difference in skill required, both real and perceived.
Agreed. We, as a group, spend a lot of money on our boats and therefore lavish them with appreciation and care. Whereas, your typical recreational kayaker doesn't mind hauling their rotomolded kayak by one end, while the other stem drags along the ground behind them. Quite frankly, the same is true for most entry level canoeists too.
Only with time and appreciation do our tastes evolve and become more sophisticated to warrant an interest in exotic hull shapes and delicate composites. That expertise tends to correlate with age too (as a group, we skew old) but the entry level paddler skews young, for whom weight matters less than durability.
The Disco 119 does seem to fit the bill as an entry level solo that could take the necessary beating to survive any new canoeist's early education. What it concedes in elegance and hull shape it more than makes up for in durability and utility, especially as a fishing platform, which might be the very best way to hook more nascent canoeists.
I think one of the smartest things I've seen is the replaceable sacrificial plastic skids on the original OT Loon series. It seems to me that it wouldn't be too difficult or expensive to include the same on a heavy plastic canoe. I'm not one to promote the habit of dragging canoes on their stems, but I think it would be useful in making a more attractive weight-cost ratio.
We canoeists should keep in mind that the potential market for new recruits realistically doesn't include the buyers of $300 'yaks from the chain stores. It's the Pungo kayakers that show an interest in our canoes at the put-in. It's the first time or returning buyers of watercraft that have limited or no choice in what to purchase. Not without spending way more than they're willing to spend on a boat.
My wife and I have been out paddling with kayakers that did appreciate how much easier it was for us to get in and out of the canoes, how much more maneuverable our canoes were, especially when meandering along or through interesting shorelines and marshes, and even how our car racks were less complicated.
But it was the cost of our "fancy" canoes that shut down any further interest on their part. I do think that if affordable entry-level canoes, with enough performance to make them fun and weighing a bit less than a comparable plastic kayak, were available and promoted by the industry we'd see more canoes out there on the water. Canoes aren't going to suddenly become commonplace but they may regain at least a presence at the put-ins.
Maybe.
My wife and I have been out paddling with kayakers that did appreciate how much easier it was for us to get in and out of the canoes, how much more maneuverable our canoes were, especially when meandering along or through interesting shorelines and marshes, and even how our car racks were less complicated.
But it was the cost of our "fancy" canoes that shut down any further interest on their part. I do think that if affordable entry-level canoes, with enough performance to make them fun and weighing a bit less than a comparable plastic kayak, were available and promoted by the industry we'd see more canoes out there on the water. Canoes aren't going to suddenly become commonplace but they may regain at least a presence at the put-ins.
Maybe.
