Wenonahs vs Prospectors

[Philtrum]

By "Wenonahs" I mean canoes with narrow stems that slice through waves rather than rise up over them. Prospector-types, on the other hand, do the opposite.

Given all the interest in w/c and other Prospector types, I'm curious if there are many here who prefer the Wenonah type.

I ask because I'm a little undecided about whether to keep my Sundowner 18 and would like to hear other's thoughts. I've seen it take water over the gunwale at the bow station in 1-foot waves and I'm not sure I want to use it for tripping any more. I also have a Bell NorthStar (16'6") that I've been told is more like a Prospector-type such as the Cronje 17.

Thoughts?

 

[Canotrouge]

One thing that I'll say is not all "Prospector" are alike!!

 

[memaquay]

The Cronje is definitely not a prospector type canoe. It has a very narrow beam, and not a lot of rocker. Our club has one, and for tripping, I will only put two flyweights in it. It is not a good canoe for whitewater. As Canot says, prospectors vary greatly, and the name is often slapped on any canoe. In my mind, the classic prospector is pretty well represented by Nova Craft. I have four of these for our club. 36 inch beam, some tumblehome, a fair amount of rocker. A 16 footer will easily carry two large paddlers and four full barrels.

I also have the Wenonah Spirit 2. I have had that canoe in a wide variety of conditions, ranging from four foot waves to class three rapids. It is actually a very dry boat. It is a pretty good all around tripping canoe. The only thing I really don't like about it is the low seat. I like to be able to move around, slide my feet under the seat, change position regularly. The Spirit kind of keeps you locked in place.

John Winters designs have narrow entry lines in the bow. I have owned pretty much the entire line. The Kipawa, and the Winisk will slice through big waves if you are trying to maintain speed in a big head wind. This doesn't become a problem until the waves are around 3 feet tall. The trick is just to slow down, and you will ride over.

A buddy has a bell northstar, it seemed to be a pretty sea worthy craft last summer when we were on Onaman Lake in huge waves. I didn't like the looks of it, due to the knuckle running the length of the canoe. I guess I just thought it was ugly, which has some bearings on whether or not I want to paddle it. It didn't seem to be a star in whitewater either.

I think I'm swinging back to traditional style canoes after years of paddling asymmetrical hulls. My newest solo will be my traditional, and my current tripping canoe for my wife and I is traditional. If i was faced with buying new tandem, I'm not sure what I would do. Guess I'd have to paddle a few more demos.

 

[Seeker]

Each hull shape has a purpose... something long and sleek that screams like a banshee over flat water is probably going to swim like a rock in whitewater. Something that's wide all the way to the ends is going to handle whitewater and lake waves a lot better than the skinny one... but will be slower on flatwater... I don't have a preference, because it's like asking if I'd rather use a hammer or screwdriver for sawing bricks.

 

[Iskweo]

We had a Jensen, 18 footer, which is one of those long narrow boats that slice through waves. I have been out in some nasty crap with that and it was fine. Most of our tripping is done with a Swift Mattawa, so I cant really comment on the traditional stuff other than our weekender trips. I know that the Chestnuts, Hurons, et al seem to paddle really well as they all tend to have sufficient rocker to handle nicely.

I use a Bear Mountain designed stripper and it is a nice boat but a little beamy at times.

When I look at the Morris we have in the shop it gives me goose bumps as you can visualise how if it paddles as good as it looks then it will be awesome. I think the older designs have been made that way for a reason and while they did not have computers to optimise the hull design, what they had was skill and artistry. Those designs are the pinnacle of performance that really has not been surpassed other than for extreme narrow specialty paddling. Those boats were used by people A LOT, every day, for decades. Only the advent of the outboard motor changed that.

In my opinion, the old designs work best. Prospectors are good for their intended use but there are some other designs out there that are equally good. Doug Ingram makes a Kildonan timber cruiser that is amazing. Old Town and Morris made some pretty sweet canoes as well.

Royalex copies are not necessarily "copies " either. A lot of it is marketing.

The best idea is to have eight or ten canoes so you will have choices. I actually had to go with my stripper yesterday as nothing else was available.


Christy

 

[Bothwell Voyageur]

I think it is a whole lot more complicated than trad. v modern. Traditional designs were often limited by the materials used which I believe was one of the reasons for the recurved ends. Many modern designs incorporate compound curves to allow for narrow entry lines with flare above the normal water line to shed waves. The knuckle on DY designed allows for flare but still permits a more upright paddle stroke. Racing regulations are the reason for plumb stems; boats are limited to an overall length so waterline length was made as long as possible within that limit. Now an stern rocker certainly make for a more forgiving craft. Paddlers tend to trim symmetrical canoes to create asymmetry anyway so why not build it into the design?

Lastly there is no law to say that seat location is fixed by divine rule; if you don't like the style, location or height rip 'me out and put in ones you like.

 

[Canotrouge]

I want a Kildonan Timber Cruiser so bad... I need the money!! Of all the prospector I've paddled, I like the 16 footer the best, and of all the 16 footer, I like the one that Bell use to make!

 

[tump_lion]

apples and oranges, both very good canoes, very different styles -- a couple years back i spent a couple of days in a couple of win-on-nahs...hoping to get enought miles under them to really get a feel for them -- never got the hang of them, next day, jumped into a loaded prospector 15 on a rather wavy lake temagami, and voila...everything felt right. but then my style, tastes, and expectations developed in traditional canoe shapes. spend considerable time in a kipawa years ago, great boats, tho i found they are sensitive to dogs shifting about...and go squirrley with a heavy paddler in the bow and a light one in the stern...i've mostly settled on prospectors, seem to suit my style, and my shifty sled-dog...tho i'm still wondering about a cronje...anybody use one for solo work?

 

[memaquay]

I think our friend Mike McCrea has outfitted a Cronje for solo paddling. It would be quite a lot of canoe for solo.

 

[ppine]

There are lots of different Wenonah hulls out there. People from lake country are most familiar with their straight keeled boats. I had a Wenonah Odyssey that had almost no rocker. It was fast but really hard to turn on rivers with a load at 18 1/2 feet. I sold it. Now I have a Wenonah Cascade which is a river boat with plenty of rocker and lots of flare. It is 15 inches deep and made of Royalex, which I like. It is 17 1/2 feet.

The Prospector is not the fastest hull design out there, but one of the best. Maybe not the best choice for lake country, but really good as an all-around canoe. They have flare and rocker which makes for a drier ride in wind driven waves. Robin posted some photos of paddling in the wind. By western standards that was just starting to get windy.

 

[tump_lion]

prospectors are a tumblehome design, not flared, the good ones have 'cheeks' tho not all of the copies do...they are much more susceptible to wind than shallower/flatter boats, especially when they are lightly loaded -- & it is pretty easy to lightly load a 17' prospector...doesn't mean they're not paddle-able in wind, i do it all the time, no sweat...

 

[charlie wilson]

I was in a canoe yard last week and got to ogle a couple of 16 ft Prospectors. One was Vee bottomed, had hard chines, no tumblehome, excessive cheek and the traditional 3" rocker well carried into the center; designer unknown. The boat yard guy claimed it was tippy slow and didn't maneuver very well? The other, a Yost design, featured an elliptical bottom, minimal cheek, less rocker and significant tumblehome. Same guy suggested it was stable and maneuverable but not too fast. Glen MacGrady did a Prospector comparison a couple years back that might be useful now.

Prospector's were riverene pickup trucks, rockered for maneuverability, wide to haul lots of gear and with the cheek and rounded stems the materials used suggested. More than 3/8 inch of cheek over three feet shortens effective waterline hull length, slowing the boat's theoretical forward speed as described by LaBrant in the late 60's. Paddlers learned to solo them at a standing heel to reduce wetted surface and drag; forward speed never approaching a two wave wash.

Prospectors feature those old timey rounded stems and carry an emotional connection to WaterWalker, but it worth noting that they aren't used much where big waves and long distance days combine, as in BWCA. They are the 58 Ford pickups of the river, not efficient touring vessels. That Said, I've owned lots of pickup trucks.

 

[ppine]

thanks to Tump Lion. I do not see Prospectors much around here and my recollection was off.

 

[Philtrum]

I was in a canoe yard last week and got to ogle a couple of 16 ft Prospectors. One was Vee bottomed, had hard chines, no tumblehome, excessive cheek and the traditional 3" rocker well carried into the center; designer unknown. The boat yard guy claimed it was tippy slow and didn't maneuver very well? The other, a Yost design, featured an elliptical bottom, minimal cheek, less rocker and significant tumblehome. Same guy suggested it was stable and maneuverable but not too fast. Glen MacGrady did a Prospector comparison a couple years back that might be useful now.

Prospector's were riverene pickup trucks, rockered for maneuverability, wide to haul lots of gear and with the cheek and rounded stems the materials used suggested. More than 3/8 inch of cheek over three feet shortens effective waterline hull length, slowing the boat's theoretical forward speed as described by LaBrant in the late 60's. Paddlers learned to solo them at a standing heel to reduce wetted surface and drag; forward speed never approaching a two wave wash.

Prospectors feature those old timey rounded stems and carry an emotional connection to WaterWalker, but it worth noting that they aren't used much where big waves and long distance days combine, as in BWCA. They are the 58 Ford pickups of the river, not efficient touring vessels. That Said, I've owned lots of pickup trucks.

Charlie, could you please explain "cheek"?

 

[yellowcanoe]

Post 25 here. Things got mentioned in two places
http://www.canoetripping.net/forums.../30701-any-prospector-drivers-out-there/page2

 

[Philtrum]

Thanks, Kim.

 

[charlie wilson]

Cheek, or Hollow is a relic of construction materials unfortunately carried through to composite construction. When widish wooden planks are bent from ~ flat along the hulls bottom to vertical orientation at the stems, a depression forms aft of the stem. The handed down theory is the hollow helps a hull ride over waves due to the volume above. In fact, the lack of volume lower to the water compromises stability and maneuverability as it partially skegs the stems. It also reduces effective waterline length because the volume to support the hull on a two wave wash, [theoretical hull speed], is moved towards center, significantly slowing forward progress.

Howie LaBrant wrote a piece on cheek/hollow for American Whitewater Alliance that can be found on line while he was designing for Moore Canoe of Indianapolis Indiana, well before their two fires. Yost thinks a little cheek is fine, Winter's claims more than 3/8" in three feet is a flaw. Hulls showing significant cheek include Hemlock's Pack series, older Hornbecks, Savage River and GR Newman Design's Wee Lassies and some older Prospector designs among others.