Training/Racing Canoe

[Clint]

Hello All. Wanted to introduce myself and start a topic hopefully on a new build. My name is Clint and I live in North Texas. I have been paddling canoes for 20-30 years off and on. Generally 4-20 mile rivers/creeks fishing trips in Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas. Also paddle on lakes and such fishing. In 2017 a coworker and I decided to complete the Texas Water Safari. We acquired us an 17' Ouachita aluminum canoe and start training. Skip to today and we have completed 2 Texas Marathon(35 miles) races and the Texas Water Safari (260 miles) and countless training miles. Have not paddled in while and hoping to be released soon to start paddling hard again (torn rotator cuff).

So now I am looking to venture off into the solo aspect of canoe racing. Also want to do more cone tripping with my family. For the solo stuff I have been reading online and looking at a ton of designs. Probably forgetting about 3/4 of what I have read. Also been talking to Alan G. which has been a big help also. Muddyfeets thread is also along the same line of what I am wanting.

I guess my first question/debate is that I have read that "a fit paddler can overcome 3lbs of resistance for hours". Not a direct quote but something that I believe came from Kayak Magazine? So in designing a canoe for myself I have 4kn @ 2.99lbs resistance. I know it is all dependable upon an individuals level of fitness. But what is everyones thought? Easily obtainable?

Now I just do not know how stable it is. Trying to figure out how to get Delftship imported into PolyCAD.

Here are some of the Hydrostatics:

Design length 18.500 (ft)
Length over all 18.500 (ft)
Design beam 2.313 (ft)
Maximum beam 0.000 (ft)
Design draft 0.289 (ft)
Volume properties:
Moulded volume 3.427 (ft3)
Total displaced volume 3.901 (ft3)
Displacement 0.111 (long ton)
Block coefficient 0.3155
Prismatic coefficient 0.4573
Vert. prismatic coefficient 0.6083
Wetted surface area 22.781 (ft2)
Longitudinal center of buoyancy 8.491 (ft)
Longitudinal center of buoyancy -4.138 %
Vertical center of buoyancy 0.182 (ft)
Midship properties
Midship section area 0.461 (ft2)
Midship coefficient 0.6899

Waterplane properties:
Length on waterline 18.333 (ft)
Beam on waterline 2.342 (ft)
Entrance angle 10.051 (Degr.)
Waterplane area 19.493 (ft2)
Waterplane coefficient 0.4556
Waterplane center of floatation 8.575 (ft)
Transverse moment of inertia 4.143 (ft4)
Longitudinal moment of inertia 235.64 (ft4)

Midship properties:
Midship section area 0.461 (ft2)
Midship coefficient 0.6899

Initial stability:
Transverse metacentric height 1.391 (ft)
Longitudinal metacentric height 68.948 (ft)

Just a start on some of my ramblings on design. Input is welcomed.
Thank you for looking.

 

[Alan Gage]

Now I just do not know how stable it is. Trying to figure out how to get Delftship imported into PolyCAD.

I can't remember how to do it off the top of my head but pretty sure I could if I was actually sitting at the computer. Somewhere online someone had a tutorial on this. It might have been on Youtube. That's how I learned to do it.

This week I'll try to get that old PC dug out and running. Then I can give you (and Muddyfeet) resistance values for a couple different boats I built as well as their resistance to tipping from PolyCAD and metacentric heights and compare them to other productions boats I've paddled. That should help relating some calculations to real life.

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

Here's the Youtube tutorial on importing into Polycad from Delftship:

Alan

 

[Alan Gage]

If I remember correctly I use 12" as the Vertical Center of Gravity (VCG) in Polycad for all my canoe designs. I don't know where the actual VCG is but it should be in the ballpark and gives me a common height for comparing different hulls.

Alan

 

[Clint]

If I remember correctly I use 12" as the Vertical Center of Gravity (VCG) in Polycad for all my canoe designs.

Thank you Alan for the video and notes. Will give it a try in the next couple days.

 

[stripperguy]

Clint,
That particular design beam, length and design draft corresponds closely to the 327 pro boats that I used to paddle extensively. Tandem race hulls.
How stable? Well, how much do you weigh? I used to paddle that hull with a similar sized buddy when I was 160 lbs. Those 327's were "active" in the sense that the fully rounded bottoms never calmed down. There was always some dithering, after a day of tandem paddling I would feel it in my lats and hips. But those hulls also had a constant flare, so we could roll the hull until we took in water over the gunnels, never did it feel like there was a surprise coming.

Ultimately, stability will be a function of the hull shape for any given length/beam relation. A better question than how stable would be what is your tolerance for an "active" hull. Usually difficult to determine until you've had enough seat time in various designs.

 

[Clint]

Well, how much do you weigh?

I weight 180#. The design draft was boat,gear and me at roughly 250#.

Ultimately, stability will be a function of the hull shape for any given length/beam relation. A better question than how stable would be what is your tolerance for an "active" hull. Usually difficult to determine until you've had enough seat time in various designs.

I wish I did have more experience with different boats. And your right what is my tolerance? When it comes down to it I think I need a boat that will not dunk me when I fall asleep while paddling. Which at that point I should be off the water anyway. But it happens sometimes.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Clint]

Not sure if I am attaching these files correctly. But these are the two designs I have been working with. Thought I would share and get the opinions from the group. Realistically I will probably only do a couple races a year. One big one every other year or so. So the boat will more than likely be used more for exercise. I am not out to win any races and will be happy to be a mid pack person. Saying all that I would like the boat to have a good primary stability.

The Texas Water Safari was last weekend!! I had to watch via social media but it was awesome to see. I had some friends enter as a 3 person unlimited. They improved their time this year. Also had a novice team that lived near me that I was able to talk to. They had a blast and finished their first TWS! They are also ready to do it again. So it looks like their is a small group of paddlers coming to be here locally. Which is very exciting.

Thank you for looking everyone. If there is an easier way to post files or pictures let me know.


Design 1
Design 2

 

[Jim Dodd]

That second design looks interesting !

One thing I don't see much about in racing designs, is Seat Height ! I understand making a sliding seat to help adjust fore and aft trim. But Seat Height should also be brought into the equation !

Not only for comfort, but to adjust the power profile of the blade. Paddle length would also relate to this !

If only Gene Jensen where alive to dive into these conversations !

jim

 

[muddyfeet]

Clint- some things to consider:
If you are wanting to pinch in the gunwales like design2, you have to consider how much room you want to have in the boat (above the water). Hydrostatics aside- That’s a big difference between the two designs that can affect how comfortable the boat is to paddle and ingress/egress. Also, unless there is going to be a deck/partial deck, you might want some flare to the bow to keep water out and pop the nose back up when you bury it in larger waves or tws rapids.

Good thoughts and nice nice work: it’s fun to try and fit numbers/ characteristics to a design.

 

[Canotrouge]

#2 looks a bit like a landick canoe...

 

[Clint]

That second design looks interesting !

One thing I don't see much about in racing designs, is Seat Height ! I understand making a sliding seat to help adjust fore and aft trim. But Seat Height should also be brought into the equation !

Not only for comfort, but to adjust the power profile of the blade. Paddle length would also relate to this !

If only Gene Jensen where alive to dive into these conversations !

jim

I like the design #2 the best. But lean towards the other for multi use. I guess I will need to build another already. Since you brought up seat height I need to check the VCG as Alan suggested earlier. It would be nice to have Mr. Jensen on these conversations.

Clint- some things to consider:
If you are wanting to pinch in the gunwales like design2, you have to consider how much room you want to have in the boat (above the water). Hydrostatics aside- That’s a big difference between the two designs that can affect how comfortable the boat is to paddle and ingress/egress. Also, unless there is going to be a deck/partial deck, you might want some flare to the bow to keep water out and pop the nose back up when you bury it in larger waves or tws rapids.

Good thoughts and nice nice work: it’s fun to try and fit numbers/ characteristics to a design.

If I use it to just train/race in then all I need to fit up front is a flashlight and a pair of size 9 shoes. With a little wiggle room. Then the front end will be covered most of the time with a skirt. Whats behind me will be plenty of room for the rest of the supplies. I was thinking of the flared sides up front. Been trying to figure how much and a process that will make it fair all the back to the cockpit.

#2 looks a bit like a landick canoe...

From what I have read the Landick design is the stablest out of the DSX, Spencer X-Stream line of boats with good speed.


Thank everyone for the replies and ideas!


Edit: Thought I would throw a link in for a comparison picture of the 3 boats.

http://www.rivermiles.com/forum/Attachments/landick_boat.jpg