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Swift c1cruiser 16'6" vs Savage River Blackwater
- Thread starter Pakrogv
- Start date
No.. About the only time you can try the two side by side is at a paddling event like the Western Pennsylvania Solo Canoe Rendezvous which was about 4 weeks ago( and both were there).. Its always best to have both on hand .. so you are in the same frame of mind same conditons etc.
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- Joined
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I went to a Swift demo day earlier this year mostly to try the 16.8 cruiser. I've had a lot of solo canoes over the years and 98% of my experience is kneeling but I'm starting to think about a sitting boat since it hurts my knees to kneel more than it used to. I should also say that I'm biased and opiniated and fussy about my canoes. I also agree that ideally you'd want to paddle the two boats back to back.
All that said, I did not particularly like the Cruiser. It did not feel especially fast to me. I had a Souris River Jensen Solo 16 some years ago that I think would run away from the Swift. The Souris River was a smaller boat and felt like it just hummed through the water and that's what I would expect from a straight tracking go fast boat. The Swift felt like it took quite a bit of muscle to get it to accelerate and then go fast...it felt like a pretty big boat. I should mention that I paddled it empty so my load was around 180 which is at the very low end for that boat. I have a Swift Shearwater that is also rated at 180-320 pounds for efficient paddling and I love it but especially when it has a good load in it...like a dog, otherwise you can also feel the skin friction on it too. I think the Swift Cruiser was derived from the Sawyer Shockwave with a little added rocker for turning and a little extra width for stability. I didn't particularly like the Shockwave either although others seem to love it. As far as handling I'll say the Cruiser felt stable and roomy and comfortable and friendly so quite luxurious. It may turn a little better than some bullet boats but compared to the solos I own it is stubborn and straight tracking and needs a lot of room to turn. I think there are some youtube videos that show it turning. I will say that the construction quality of the Cruiser is very nice and it's nice and light and stiff even though it's a big boat. I might have liked it more with about 250 pounds in it but I'd need to love it both empty and loaded to spend that much money...especially for a boat that can't dance.
I was just looking at the reviews for the Blackwater on the Savage River site and one guy said he could go 6.3 mph in his Magic and 7.9 in the Blackwater. I had a Magic and still have a Merlin II that I've gotten to 5.9 mph. I'd expect the Cruiser speed to be similar to the Magic so I'd expect the Blackwater to be much faster. If you get caught out somewhere in big wind and waves most likely you'd prefer to be in the Cruiser...but I've never paddled a Blackwater. Swift seems to be making their new boats more user-friendly so they don't scare people. I imagine the Blackwater would be a little more specialized. I'd like to try one.
All that said, I did not particularly like the Cruiser. It did not feel especially fast to me. I had a Souris River Jensen Solo 16 some years ago that I think would run away from the Swift. The Souris River was a smaller boat and felt like it just hummed through the water and that's what I would expect from a straight tracking go fast boat. The Swift felt like it took quite a bit of muscle to get it to accelerate and then go fast...it felt like a pretty big boat. I should mention that I paddled it empty so my load was around 180 which is at the very low end for that boat. I have a Swift Shearwater that is also rated at 180-320 pounds for efficient paddling and I love it but especially when it has a good load in it...like a dog, otherwise you can also feel the skin friction on it too. I think the Swift Cruiser was derived from the Sawyer Shockwave with a little added rocker for turning and a little extra width for stability. I didn't particularly like the Shockwave either although others seem to love it. As far as handling I'll say the Cruiser felt stable and roomy and comfortable and friendly so quite luxurious. It may turn a little better than some bullet boats but compared to the solos I own it is stubborn and straight tracking and needs a lot of room to turn. I think there are some youtube videos that show it turning. I will say that the construction quality of the Cruiser is very nice and it's nice and light and stiff even though it's a big boat. I might have liked it more with about 250 pounds in it but I'd need to love it both empty and loaded to spend that much money...especially for a boat that can't dance.
I was just looking at the reviews for the Blackwater on the Savage River site and one guy said he could go 6.3 mph in his Magic and 7.9 in the Blackwater. I had a Magic and still have a Merlin II that I've gotten to 5.9 mph. I'd expect the Cruiser speed to be similar to the Magic so I'd expect the Blackwater to be much faster. If you get caught out somewhere in big wind and waves most likely you'd prefer to be in the Cruiser...but I've never paddled a Blackwater. Swift seems to be making their new boats more user-friendly so they don't scare people. I imagine the Blackwater would be a little more specialized. I'd like to try one.
I don't believe his GPS.
I could go 6.3 in my Magic and I could go 6.3 in a Blackwater.
It was a nice boat but I was disappointed in the speed. I don't doubt it's faster than a Magic in capable hands but it's not in a different league.
Alan
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That's really good information Alan. I'm not anxious to go spend $4500 on a new solo canoe that's for sure. I think canoes are like cars and they generally obey physics where drag forces are proportional to the square of speed so if the Blackwater could go almost 30% faster than a Magic then the boat would have about half the drag (twice as efficient as a Magic) which would be pretty dramatic. Now I kind of regret selling my Jensen Solo 16.
Have you paddled the GRB solos? Their 16.8 looks interesting to me.
7.9 is ripping! FWIW, I can sprint my Wenonah Voyager to 6.7 (and I'm old and weak). I like the boat, and it gets rave reviews on Paddling.com. At 17'6", there's a lot of boat to push. I'll have to clock my C1W sometime for comparison--shorter may be faster--I'm pretty sure I can't push the Voyager to hull speed (whatever it is). Back when I used to race, 17' was the longest solo around (e.g. Wenonah C1F, Advantage XL). And now the Js are up to 18'6". Must be a new breed of paddler out there!
I can't even do 7.9 in a J-boat. Not even close. The only boat I could do that with was a WSBS Thunderbolt (21' long racing kayak) and a wing paddle. I could get it just over 8mph in a sprint.
I know there are people who can push both the Blackwater and J-boats a lot harder than I can but I can't believe the report from the guy who said he could do 6.3 in a Magic and 7.9 in a Blackwater. If he can push the Blackwater to 7.9 then he should be able to push the Magic a lot higher than 6.3. And if he can push a Blackwater to 7.9 then he should be setting sprint records in a J-boat at nationals.
I've raced and trained a lot with a GPS. I've seen it give momentary bogus readings (both higher and lower) I don't believe. I've got to think that's what happened.
After tinkering around a bit with canoe designs and looking at hull resistance I came away believing there is little difference between similarly spec'd canoes. Sure, over the course of a race in skilled hands small differences will make one boat seem much faster after 10 miles but for regular paddling by regular people it just doesn't really matter. When I look at canoes in the 16.5' range that are meant for racing as well as general paddling and tripping I don't think any of them are going to be very different.
It's easiest to compare sprint speeds and that's where the differences in efficiency will be most apparent. But when you back off to cruising speeds (either tripping or racing) the differences in hull resistance won't be so great.
Alan
I know there are people who can push both the Blackwater and J-boats a lot harder than I can but I can't believe the report from the guy who said he could do 6.3 in a Magic and 7.9 in a Blackwater. If he can push the Blackwater to 7.9 then he should be able to push the Magic a lot higher than 6.3. And if he can push a Blackwater to 7.9 then he should be setting sprint records in a J-boat at nationals.
I've raced and trained a lot with a GPS. I've seen it give momentary bogus readings (both higher and lower) I don't believe. I've got to think that's what happened.
After tinkering around a bit with canoe designs and looking at hull resistance I came away believing there is little difference between similarly spec'd canoes. Sure, over the course of a race in skilled hands small differences will make one boat seem much faster after 10 miles but for regular paddling by regular people it just doesn't really matter. When I look at canoes in the 16.5' range that are meant for racing as well as general paddling and tripping I don't think any of them are going to be very different.
It's easiest to compare sprint speeds and that's where the differences in efficiency will be most apparent. But when you back off to cruising speeds (either tripping or racing) the differences in hull resistance won't be so great.
Alan
This recalls the One True Graph over in muddyfeet's build thread. Draw a horizontal line (fixed resistance/thrust), and the difference between the Magic and a hypothetical crazy tippy 19.5 unlimited C1 is <= 0.5mph.
I did a couple of laps around the pond at Cooper's Lake in a Savage Blackwater at the WPASCR event a few years ago, and compared it back to back with a Wenonah Advantage. I felt that the Blackwater was noticeably more efficient, certainly not 1 mph faster, but enough to be appreciable. I have paddled Bell Magics enough to know that an Advantage is faster, at least in my hands, so I think the difference between a Magic and a Blackwater would be easily noticed. I could believe a speed differential of 0.5 mph between the Blackwater and a Magic. I have not seen nor paddled the Swift.
I need a better name than that, though.
Agreed that the speed difference would not be huge. But over distance, small advantages add up!
I think that the difference between the two boats is more evident in rough water. The Cruiser has a fuller bow and sheds waves way better. The Savage River low tumblehome invites waves and the knife bow slices through them
DY has always designed boats around paddlers not for a concept in itself.. He wanted a more seaworthy and sea kindly boat than the Blackwater.
I'd take the Blackwater on the Erie Canal
I'd take the Cruiser on Lake Opeongo
DY has always designed boats around paddlers not for a concept in itself.. He wanted a more seaworthy and sea kindly boat than the Blackwater.
I'd take the Blackwater on the Erie Canal
I'd take the Cruiser on Lake Opeongo
I recommend badass hypothetical crazy tippy 19.5 unlimited C1. USCA racing boats are radical enough. When you go full unlimited, that's badass.
Yes, and in a race it's all relative. 0.1mph ~=2% doesn't sound like much, but in an ultra it could be an hour. You might be on your third beer when the next boat comes in.
Some of you might recognize me as that crazy Krugerhead...I own two Kruger Sea Winds, and have owned a Mad River Monarch and Sawyer Loon. I also have a Clipper Sea 1. I started solo canoeing to do the MR340, which progressed into racing the Everglades Challenge 3 times, and taking 14 trips up north to Quetico, Woodland Caribou, and BWCA. I really like these boats, they are moderately fast, very seaworthy, and easy to put the power down and go in a straight line with their rudders. Always intrigued by decked canoes, I paid attention when Savage came out with the Falcon. I paddled one on the Missouri River some time back. It is the Blackwater hull you know, just with a deck and a rudder. It kinda "looks" like a Sawyer Loon. Could this be the fast, and LIGHT, decked canoe of my dreams? Nope. The Falcon is just uncomfortable in rough waters. It is just not as seaworthy as these other boats. I wouldn't want to be paddling in barge wakes 45 hours into the MR340 at 2am in the Falcon. It certainly isn't a boat for the Everglades Challenge..in fact one entered the race in 2019 but in the rough conditions, the paddler said he wasn't having any fun and dropped out. All that said, portaging 55-60 pound Sea Winds in the North Country is getting harder and harder. Part of me is looking at lighter weight options. A relatively easy choice would be a Magic, Advantage, or Voyageur. But the Swift 16.8 Cruiser looks REALLY interesting. I've paddled the Shockwave and it seems the changes to the design on the 16.8 are right up my alley.
Joe
Joe
